SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back to the Blurred Spectrum Podcast. We are here today to give you another jump into the gaming industry, gaming community. We're just doing an old-fashioned game. It's not actually old-fashioned. We're doing a gaming related episode because we actually had a couple people at BlurCon, uh, which was our episode from last week, ask about different pieces of content that we could potentially do. Um, and I already told them, but yeah, we actually have a gaming episode coming up really soon. So you should be excited about it. I don't know if they're gonna be excited about it, because it's not necessarily what they would probably talk about, because not everybody talks about this particular topic, but we're gonna talk about it because we are renegades. Not really renegades, we're just you know people with with uh with intelligence who like to game. So uh this episode this week is uh gaming controversies. Um now this could be anything from the the whole of the gaming the whole pineapples, sorry, the entire gaming industry uh to individual uh fighting game or strategy game communities, card-based communities. Uh, this could be talking about studios, uh uh popular um titles, you know, the music behind the gaming community, a variety of things. But we have our all-star panel of intellectual individuals here to discuss these different topics. Uh, of course, I'll introduce our panel, starting with myself, Su Chino Shogun, your moderator. Uh, we also have The Doctor. That's good. We have Kaze Shinryu. Hola, we have Bruiser Brody, Coke Biceps, part of the Shampoo bracelets. Yo, yo. And we have the Black McCoy. So, as we discussed momentarily, I wanted, you know, just to kind of jump into any controversy that is on the top of your mind. Maybe something recent, something past, uh, anything that you think that the average gamer or person may not actually know because there's always speculation. You know, whenever a rumor or a controversy comes up, everybody has their own two cents. They're like, oh, it must have happened because of this. Oh, it must have happened because of that. And not many people will take the time before they open their mouths to do the research and um and actually have facts, you know, uh based off of what's going on, whether it's a you know, a case or whether it's just information. It's actually similar to what we were talking about in the uh hating for clout episodes, where people will hear something, jump on the bandwagon, pick a side, whether it's right or wrong, and you know, just start spouting, you know, lies, myths, truths, whatever. So gonna go, uh, I guess more specifically, opinions. That's a good word. Uh, another word today, opinions. Um, so I think we should uh let's go one by one um and just give a controversy that pops into your mind, and uh we'll discuss it. Um, I think we should start with the doctor. How are you feeling? You got one?

SPEAKER_04 3:07

Sounds good. So yeah, it's interesting because there are a few different controversies, I think, are definitely at the forefront right now. One that stands out really to me because it's been such an ongoing one for a significant amount of time, but it's still really being an issue on both in the gaming and legal sphere related to gaming, is around loot boxes.

SPEAKER_06 3:30

So loot boxes, I was gonna talk about that, but go ahead. I got more.

SPEAKER_04 3:38

All right, so yeah, like see, it's a it's a popular controversy. Um, loot boxes. So I think this really started hitting the, I guess, more public eye around Destiny a while back, where there's a big conversation around just, you know, essentially loot boxes being able to purchase these, you know, random like boxes or packages with you know real money that can give you a random amount of you know equipment, you know, and so forth that can, of course, make your, you know, make the place playing through the games differently easier, give you a better edge in combat, all of that. And a lot of different games have various forms of loot boxes. Uh currently, one of the more recent issues or roster shared this is with take two and being sued um for loot boxes in NBA 2K. Um, and there's an element I believe on behalf of a guardian suing on behalf of a miner who had spent you know all this money purchasing loot boxes. And I mean, it can go up to, you know, somebody would spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on these. Oh, wait, wait, wait. I'm I'm sorry, what? Yeah, so thousands of thousands upon thousands of dollars just purchasing loot box after loot box after loot box.

SPEAKER_07 4:52

Well, that's about 30 plus your old 90s heart, Lord Jesus.

SPEAKER_04 4:57

You know, a part of the issue, so it's interesting because it hits at two different but closely related issues when it comes to you know kind of monetizing this aspect of games. Um, first is just the gambling aspect where, and I think that's been the core of a lot of these lawsuits where you're paying real money to purchase something that, you know, you're essentially rolling the dice. Where you know, you know, you might get something that's really, really beneficial and really gets you, you know, ahead. Or you might get something that's just kind of trash. Um, and so having this gambling aspect couched in the games has been a center of a lot of the controversy and a lot of the focus in the legal aspect of it because you know, especially for some of these games that you know are played by miners, um, it's interesting element of gambling towards miners. And that's been a big central point of that. Um, now the other one, which I think gets talked about more specifically in the gaming sphere as well, is focused on the pay-to-win aspect of this. Because for a lot of these games, uh, the potential trade-off or let's say getting a loot box with just the right weapon or you know, just the right piece of equipment, it can give you such an incredible advantage in you know whatever game you're playing. This is not just true for Destiny, but true for true for many games that involve loot boxes.

SPEAKER_07 6:23

What would you say? I was saying Pokemon Unite, Overwatch, um, Diablo, a lot of them, if not all of them. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 6:32

It's really, really like just become this pervasive issue because, you know, of course, if there's this pay-to-win structure, then effectively the cost of the game is okay, you have the standard cost of the game if you want to struggle through, but then if you want to really do well, you know, you got to pay a little extra here, a little extra there, you know. And it's just it's almost like a form of inflation of game price in practice. Um, especially in situations where, you know, that those loot boxes or getting that equipment can save you just hours upon hours upon hours of time. Um is interesting. I remember reading somewhere, like someone's doing a study around this where it was something like I forget what game it was, but um putting in say $10 into a loot box on average saved you about like 15 hours of gameplay in terms of grinding. So that's pretty significant if you can like say, no, drop $100 and now you know 150 hours of grinding that you no longer have to do.

SPEAKER_06 7:36

I'm like, damn, I already spent 60 on the game. Like I spent my money to play it, you know. I I bought my 15 hours for a reason because I needed something else to do when I'm not doing my other shit. So why why would I take that 15 hours away from myself by dropping another?

SPEAKER_04 7:52

You know, and it's it's wild because you know, with games being the prices they are, like it does kind of feel like a slap in the face to ask for more and more and more on top of that. And I'm not even, you know, I'm not entirely opposed to like paid DLC or anything like that. I think there's a place where that's okay and there's a place where it's not, you know, but this is a different level where it um like the pay-to-win aspect can get a little too strong. And of course, again, the gambling aspect, that's a whole nother issue. Because imagine dropping like, you know, $100 on loot boxes and you don't get anything.

SPEAKER_07 8:26

Yo, I just had a random thought. So imagine investing in like a play to win with like a fighter, and you like buy all like the skills and armor and shit, and then you come up against Kaze who still beats your ass anyway.

SPEAKER_02 8:40

No, like literally.

SPEAKER_05 8:44

Oh, that's that's happened.

SPEAKER_04 8:49

Like, that's a real thing. Yeah, the thing is, like, especially in these games, in a lot of games where you know loot boxing gets or that um the right equipment give you a huge advantage. You can have someone who's has put in, like, played a game for maybe five, six hours, but they have a lot of money. Yeah so they have the best equipment up front, you know, through some of these loot boxes. And then you could be the most amazing player, but you're working with no the standard equipment for you know that level of playthrough, and you just can't win.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

You see it in anime all the time. It's like you never learn from the anime lessons. Like you don't need the best shit. If you're the best person, you can win. It's it's really and and to even add on to that, like that you talked about the gambling aspect. What I find even more because I I remember one of the games on top of uh you had brought up, oops, shoot, forgot it that quick. Um, you the initial game you brought up that was one of the keystones to it, uh Destiny. Uh around the same time, there was that big debacle with uh Star Wars. Uh what was it, Battlefront, or it was might have been a different Star Wars.

SPEAKER_07 9:50

But it's I think it was I think it was Battlefront because it was like it was like the it was the I think it was I D1 that like set off because it was a whole case.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

They had like many to the to the point that they had to like almost pull no, I think they did pull the game. Um Battlefront 2. Battlefront 10, thank you. And you know, it was people were just outraged because it was like I can't do well in their minds, I couldn't do anything with this game if I did not have these loot boxes. But these loot boxes, I would buy so many loot boxes and not get anything. And I'm like, you're getting stuff, you're just not getting what you want.

SPEAKER_03 10:19

And no, well, the thing about the battlefront 2 thing was they they had put progression behind that. So it wasn't that they couldn't do it, it wasn't really that they couldn't do anything, though that was part of the problem. It was that they couldn't move up. Oh you couldn't you couldn't move up without getting these loot boxes, which it kind of like forced the idea. Yeah, what huff say again?

SPEAKER_00 10:41

It forces you to to make the purchases.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

Yeah, it forces you to make the purchase just to level up, which was that was one of the biggest issues with that. Was you literally, it was before where it was like, okay, we put loot boxes in the game, but they kind of just hid like some some items, some characters, but you could still move up, you can still get better, you can still skill your way to the top. It might take you longer, but that was it. They literally made it so you couldn't level up without these loot boxes. Like, like you couldn't move, you couldn't upgrade characters without these loot boxes. So your character will still be could still be stuck in a baseline while this dude that just came in with 50 bucks, he's already got a max level character waiting. So it was like it kind of took the the same standpoint of um how some MMOs after a certain amount of time they'll start to release uh level um they'll start to release like like level level. Yeah, level our content. We're pretty much like you can skip over a bunch of stuff and get the end game. But what's Godfall or something? Godfall does a lot of games do not have it. Uh one of the uh World of Warcraft did it, was one of the first ones I think to start it when they were like, all right, we this game's been out for so long that a lot of people don't want to play through the beginning stages anymore. We'll just we'll just give you a max level, you know, character for this much.

SPEAKER_07 12:04

It smells like the engineering. That's what it smells like to the engineering.

SPEAKER_03 12:06

Yeah, pretty much. So like it's kind of like it was uh with Battlefront 2, they took it the extra step and it was like, nah, you can't really level up without these loot boxes. Now you can get loot boxes without paying for them, but they literally made it so there was a power creep because of it. And then you had then now you fast forward to like games like Diablo, where it's like, good luck, good luck, Diablo Immortal, good luck you if you try to play the game for free. Because once you go to PvP, you're getting blitzed.

SPEAKER_07 12:40

That's the fundamental problem. People want to play with other folks. Fuck up other people that like I will play a game by myself forever if I need to.

SPEAKER_03 12:48

Yeah, and that's and like I said, a lot of people, a lot of people do like the aspect. But one of the biggest things about playing online games is the is the interaction with other people, though. Is it? Is it so yeah, because it's no point? What's the point of playing online if you ain't playing with other people? Like the option.

SPEAKER_05 13:06

A lot of those games that's predatory like that, they're not giving you the option to play by yourself.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:11

That's why they'll make you, they'll make you if not, if not fight other people directly, you're you're competing in points. You gotta do this content by a certain amount of time, or uh or or you uh or or you can or if you clear this in uh X or this is only open uh this amount of time per day. So so the person who can clear it a hundred times that amount of time versus somebody who can clear it 15 times is is just massive. Like yeah, like night and day.

SPEAKER_03 13:44

Especially, especially with games like Diablo, where it's it's all about to plug in adrenaline rush and just trying to run through these all these enemies at once and see how fast you need to do it and how much loot you can get, but then they're trying to hold back the loose. Yeah, and that's the thing. It's like Diablo, Diablo can be a very fun single-player game, just like passing exile. But it's like I said, a lot of but it's different when you play with other people. And to some people, it's a little bit more enjoyable than others, no, because they get in the way. But uh, it just depends on the person. But when they put games on online like that, it's merely because they're trying to make it a multiplayer game. And it's almost like they're trying to replace the idea of the couch co-op dance. So um, or the land party dance. So, pretty much what they did with Diablo was they just kind of made it so that if you want to do PvP, you're gonna have to to compete and put money into it. And then if you don't want to compete, but you know, if you don't want to compete really, you just want to go in there to have fun, good luck to you. But just hope to God if you don't want to get your ass what if you go up against these dudes and spend like a good 10,000 on a character and they got all the highest years and all the runes that they can use, and now they're just running through you. You it doesn't matter how much skill you have, it doesn't have matter how much skill you have. When you hit a dude and it's only one damage, he hits you for 100. That's like that's a that's that's a different deal.

SPEAKER_07 15:18

Like you can't skill that about this in this detail, and that's partly because like I like when whenever I like meet people and they like know that I game, like it's very difficult to talk about what games I'm like currently playing because that like a lot of what you all talking about, like heavily influences partly why I'm such a big RPG player. In the first like I steadily prefer a good RPG experience. Um, because one, uh the storytelling for me is a lot more streamlined and consolidated. I don't have to allow anyone else to do it except the game itself. Um, two, the I don't have to like focus on like trying to accommodate for anyone else around me. I can just go through the game, like I will go through a good book. And three, I don't have to pay for it. I more often than not have never had to pay for anything extra in like an RSPG. Like I could, but like there's no need for it. And they go get you. I know, they'll I'll put it in the they will try, they'll try, but will they succeed? Unlikely. I I I I put back things that cost five dollars. So I was like, I don't need this. I've walked around with it for an hour and be like, hmm, nah, I can put this back down. Like, if I can look at something for like a solid 10 that costs $3, I'm like, nah, I'm good. I'm good, I'm good. Yeah, no, so it's I I understand like thoroughly because I watch it happen, and one of the things that I learned about Overwatch 2 is like it's gonna be free to play. And allegedly, one of the things I remember reading is that they're gonna get rid of loot boxes. And I was like, I don't know what that's gonna mean. Uh, that sounds precarious, but I also know that based on a lot of videos and things that I watched about Overwatch 2, is that they're going to be introducing like a lot of different play styles for different characters um and PvP in some of the inner PvP aspects. And I'm not sure what that's going to look like moving forward. I'm growing, I wasn't paying attention to it, partly because, you know, I'm just waiting for the game to come out, but also um, as we have this conversation, I'm growing more concerned with things of that nature, right? Because it's like the only MMO that I play consistently. Like even when Elder Scrolls Online came out, like it to my because I played it in a very specific way, like it was similar enough to Skyrim where it was like you don't have to pay for anything you don't really need. Um, but otherwise, like, I think the only thing I bought in that game was like a bear. Like, you didn't want a bear as a mount instead of a foot horse. Like, I would love to, I would love to ride a bear around. I prefer an elephant, but a bear is great. Um, but that was the only thing I bought. It was like three bucks. And then otherwise, like, you didn't have to pay for anything else if you didn't need to. But even in Overwatch Now, you can buy like money and stuff for the loot boxes they have, but you get so many loot boxes, and the things that you get in those loot boxes don't really affect your gameplay one way or the other. It's just skins and stuff and spur, like really petty um aesthetic things. But when I think, and I it kind of goes back to what the doctor was saying, like loot boxes definitely have a place, and paying for certain things definitely has a place. But when it starts to encroach on the gameplay, then it becomes a problem. And I know that when it comes to like a lot of mobile games, um, especially like really uh I uh apologize to to anyone who may play these games, but uh some of these games, uh, but like more pedestrian um mobile games like Candy Crush and stuff like that, like it gets it can get really um insidious when it comes to how it approaches your your pockets and your finances. Because then it's like, oh, you can just pay to get to a certain point rather than actually just going through the game and grind and grinding, so to speak. Um those are thoughts.

SPEAKER_04 19:05

Yeah, no, definitely. And you know, it's it's so interesting because it's it can get to just really intense extremes that just damage gameplay and damage gaming communities. I think Diablo, um, you know, current Diablo is a really good example of a really good example for seeing some of the differences compared to like original Diablo 2, where you know, we're going to get into the competitive community or the PvP community, you're like, oh, here's a guy, you put in this many hours, you can just strike to be in the loop you need, but there's no financial barrier beyond the initial purchase of the game. But now, like, you if you don't have a certain amount of money to, you know, get a certain amount of you know, the right equipment, hopefully, because there is some randomness to it, um, you just can't get in at a high level. Like, there's no way you could train for hours and hours on end, you know, that it's just not, it's really not happening. And it's to the point where in a lot of games, like um some of the um, some of these, uh, whatchallow, like more competitive of MMOs and whatnot, the competitive of the sponsors will have loot boxes in their budget or you know, whatever that game is, because it's such a necessary part of, oh, if you want to do well, you're gonna have to have a certain level of equipment. And it's inefficient to have you work on this or spend, let's say, thousands of hours finding equipment when you know you can buy this and be like 900 hours ahead or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

And then it's um I'm sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 20:38

One more thing, too, is that there's one of the biggest things that's not that we've kind of crossed over a little bit because like though we we started with doctor with loot boxes, a lot of these fall into just microtransactions as a whole. Some of these are the loot boxes, they'll tell you you they'll they'll tell you what it is, and that's the way they're starting to get around now is that they're starting to just use predatory uh marketing in these games to even tell you, hey, you can go ahead and get this, and it'll make your game this much more fun and this much more easier, and da da da da. So they're telling you what you can get, and then the way that they'll they'll work it out is because all these games have their own currency in them, they'll have it so that, okay, this is 500 points to get this item. But these things come in stacking 550 or 600. And then the idea is that you know the tokens come in 550 or 600. So you'll get the 550, you'll buy this item now, you got 50 tokens left, and you're like, well, if I go get another 50 or blah, blah, blah, you know, there's only a dollar for this amount of tokens, and I can, you know, get a better set of tokens, and I can get this item too. Or it's like, it's like, because uh, they're messing with the idea of when you have free tokens just sitting there from a previous stack, you're actually, what do you do? With those extra tokens. Well, then you see an item you want, you're like, well, I already got these tokens, I'll just add this much to it. And then now you find yourself trying to do the math to see if you if you spend this amount of token, how many token packs can you have to buy everything you want or some extra, and then no longer have any tokens in there. So now you feel like you're free from the clutches of this of this transaction. That's pretty much what it is. So it's almost like it's drugs. It's a drug game.

SPEAKER_07 22:33

Don't be reductive. It's not a drug game, it's the capitalist game, which is they're exactly the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 22:37

It's the exact same thing. It's the exact same thing.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

And I agree about the fact that they're really pushing the and not caring about pushing the microtransaction kind of terminology with the games and the attractiveness to attractiveness to the games. Only uh a few type of individuals are not gonna spend X amount of dollars mid-game or at the beginning of the game to, you know, get certain equipment or get certain uh additives to get themselves further into the game. But their target audience, especially right now, is definitely the younger crowd, the Gen Zs and later, uh the children of the people who aren't gonna pay the money, but they'll pay the money for their kids. So it's like, oh, a you know, Suchino Shogun is not gonna play, is not gonna pay. Like I'll as I've said many times, I'll buy a premium ultimate edition. Why? Because I'm getting you, giving you all the money you're gonna get for me at the gate. Don't expect anything else from me later on. So if anything else is coming out that I want, it better be a DLC or, for example, Monster Hunter. Monster Hunter, I got the premium whatever edition of the first game. Then they said, okay, we're releasing a brand new game that you can stack on top of the first game. I bet I'll buy that and I'll get the premium deluxe edition of that. That's how you'll get money from Suchino Shogun. But the problem is when you have uh a younger generation that the generation that won't give you any more money for, well, most of us, some of us, some of us won't give you all of our money for microtransactions, then they target the younger crowd and they say, okay, well, for you to be able to do this dance and this game that you want to do, you're gonna give me this money. Oh, okay. Well, let me go get the money for my dad or my grandfather, my grandmother, my aunt, or my uncle, or whoever. And then the money starts to pour in. So the the loot boxes, although they're a controversy, once they got past the initial hump of the people who were complaining, which is our kind of age range, they targeted the next group who we would still pay for. And in the end of the day, we're still paying for loot boxes regardless. So the controversy no longer becomes a controversy.

SPEAKER_07 24:36

Now it just we to a sum, because they know we over here.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

I mean, I mean, at this point, it's just, you know, hey, we're paying it regardless.

SPEAKER_04 24:46

Absolutely. You know, I think that's um like the focus of a lot of the lawsuits has really been on the target of miners. And um, this is what Champlain Burris mentioned earlier, but currency being presented in a deceptive way. So it's not really, especially if you're talking a kid who doesn't really understand trans that well to begin with. Yeah, they they could spend, you know, hundreds of dollars and not really understand that that's what they're doing. Because, you know, it's all in, you know, diamond points or whatnot. Okay, like it doesn't register for them. So yeah, it's it's where a lot of issues converge.

SPEAKER_07 25:19

Yeah, I agree. I was actually about to say that, Doctor, like there's a layer of things that are converging there. There's like the layer of there's like the layer of like a false economy or like putting in a supplement for the economy that we already have. There's this also this ideological layer that anything that happens on the internet isn't real in some way, shape, or form, so you're not actually paying for anything. Like, there's so many different, like philosophically, philosophically intricate, but as well as like parasocially intricate things that are happening there that just are so difficult to unpack because one, what like 10 to like 15-year-old is going to understand certain concepts in terms of like your being like you're being groomed for a certain economic, uh economic standing or economic transactional structure, or like some sort of like socioeconomic standing and somebody like them being assimilated into a certain degree, certain degree of normalcy by like a corporation, not even specifically like a game designer or a person who's like putting together or the studios who putting these games together, but specifically by the people who want to make more money off of the game itself. And it's it's yeah, like you all said, it's extremely, it's extremely predatory. Like to us, it's very explicitly so. And I think that comes from like the privilege or like the the um the prudence we developed in terms of being the children of like the being like millennials and having watched a number of different transitions in terms of technology, in terms of like various aspects of our lives, because we went from like couch co-op to online, to like online play being accessible, to online play being basically free because it was already hard enough to get online play, and then online play costing to have in the first place, but not needing to have online play to play with your friends, and then having to pay for online play that necessarily to play with your friends or literally anyone else. And like we're at a point now, like I was looking at my PS Plus subscription, I was like, wow, I really only like I pay for PS Plus so I can get other stuff and other discounts and stuff for different games, but also like a lot of the appeal for PS Plus for some people, I'm sure, is that you get to engage in online play with other people. And I think that kind of like and to to um Sherry B's point and to the doctor's point, it adds on this extra layer of like something that we talked about in our um cosplay and social media episode, like what it means to this kind of other layer of what it means to be an influencer, like gaming and gaming has become this influence, has has fallen to the same um kind of predatory like um um alures of in influencership and like being a streamer and things like that in the same way that cosplay and another and a number of other industries have like taken these very normal day-to-day aspects of people's lives and their hobbies and things of that nature and turned them into these capitalistic cash cows. Like they've literally turned them into farms for money. Like it's it's it's scary to me because as some as anti-capitalist as my mindset is, and as much more communist as my mindset is, to watch how insidiously the ideal of monetizing one's like one's like minuscule aspects of one life, one's life has become so glamorized to the extent where it has been turned into this like dream and this like rhetoric and this own kind of doctrine and just like evangelical just mindset of oh, you just do what you love and you have to never, if you do what you love, then you never work a day in your life. Like, no, you're still working, you're actually working all the time. It's just the illusion that you somehow aren't working because you love this thing, right? But in reality, it's like when it's like um a lot of TikTokers like, yeah, you know, I started working for myself, so you know, I didn't want to have to work 95, but now I'm working at now I'm actually just working 24-7. It's like, yeah, no, you just turned your life into a literal job rather than having a part of your life be dedicated to going to work. And I think it's a very American thing that we that it's very clearly like structured in our own country. Because you don't see it happen a lot of other countries. Like other countries have much more equitable kind of like labor practices, but we don't have a lot of equitable labor practices. So it only makes sense for us as well as the things we love in terms of things like gaming and cosplaying and so on and so forth, but specifically sticking to gaming, because that's what we're talking about today. But for things like that to become just another piece of meat to be thrown into this like slop pit of like capitalistic like hellscapeness. Hellscapeness isn't a word, but I'm just adding that onto the end of things right now.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

But like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, the doctor, did you have any other points that you wanted to cover on uh loot boxes?

SPEAKER_04 30:16

No, I mean that sums up so much of it. Like it's just the I I'm you know, honestly, I'm not sure how this is going to get better or if this is going to get better, but it's feels like it's definitely adapting with you know the changing laws around you know loot boxes and so forth.

SPEAKER_05 30:32

Um we'll see. I had uh I add one thing. Uh oh lord. Well, you know, I had a bunch of things. Yeah, y'all talk fast. But um well, yeah, it was it used to be a much dirtier word uh until before Blizzard ruined their good name. Uh uh when uh when Overwatch came, when uh when they they kind of did it all on the slope in a in a row. But but when Overwatch came out and Blizzard was still trusted, and and Overwatch came came and put loop uh loot boxes in Overwatch, and they put it in there in a way that didn't didn't affect gameplay, that that was like a giant like green flag for other more predatory companies to be like, oh, we can make them pay for the game and and we can add micro because it used to be like a hell no, people would outrage if you put out microtransactions in the game that you paid full price for. But but but Blizzard just came and like, hey, hey, nope, you don't gotta get it.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

No, you get these for free. No, it's cool.

SPEAKER_05 31:36

I paid it down and now uh uh EA um uh between uh uh FIFA specifically between 2019 to 2022 uh made over six billion dollars off microtransactions. Uh yeah, just off of just off of microtransactions. Uh that's that's that's more money than most studios are worth 10 times. Worth that's just FIFA. They do that for pretty much all of their games. Like night, UFC, yeah, yeah. I know the dark Dr. Air brought up the like the lawsuits. Like Belgium had like uh Belgium had like banned loot boxes, and EA still sold all their games there and they just paid. They just paid it. They took the court cake, the court cake, they took they just got sued.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Because the amount that they're suing for is nowhere near how much they were making. It's more efficient to break the law. Yeah, I'll apologize later. So how many billion? Uh oh over six billion almost. So I would have taken one billion in lawsuits and kept my five billion. Simple.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

Jesus. But uh, as the Blackman court said, we have plenty of other controversies to cover. Uh so you know, Kaze, since you kind of jumped in at the end there, do you have your controversy, gaming controversy, uh, that you would like to talk about?

SPEAKER_05 32:59

I'll go with uh Star Citizen. Uh Star Citizen is a uh just like very granular, in-depth, um very uh uh futuristic, pretty much like space exploration game. Okay. It uh it came out, it came out on uh Kickstarter years and years ago, and they like you know, and they and they were and they were pretty much describing the most amazing, just in-depth, like just every like like pretty much the cloak the the closest thing you can come to like actually living in space is going to be you playing this game. And and uh and it and it excited people so much that like it it it broke barriers and barriers of Kickstarter like records, uh records, yeah. Just because like just because this has sounded like the most amazing, ridiculous thing. And and so like and and so like kind of what's what's happened is it's like Star Citizen has like kind of become famous as just kind of selling this this the future of this futuristic game uh bit by bit is still like convincing people that this game and and it and it's still being developed, but they've turned they're making money just just from working on the game and promising more things. Wow. And and that's you know, and that's and that's almost like what the people want, like the uh like the ships, the ships that you they sell in this game, like they're like two scale, like they're like there's you there's a person, and and and the and these and these and these ships go for like anywhere from like 40 something to hundreds of dollars in real life money. And people and people are just shelling out money for these ships as they come out over time. In this game, that is not done. Not even out yet.

SPEAKER_03 34:58

Uh yeah, like it's been an early, it's uh game that's been in early access now for about 10 years. In fact, the game I remember hearing, I remember meeting the guy who played it back when it was in early access in 2013. Jesus Christ. Wow, the game has come a long way. I'm not gonna deny that. Yeah, it has. It's pretty much look at like look at it like that. Starfield is what this game is kind of now. Like it's like you can when you when they say those ships are the scale, like I've actually been keeping up with it for a while because I've been thinking about playing it. Not gonna lie to you. I was thinking about playing that bitch because it looks good, and I just want it looks crazy. You can climb in the ships, you can fly around in space, you can do little bounty missions, get out of the ships, walk around on planets, planets fully built.

SPEAKER_05 36:01

Yeah, you know whole wars against Kansas.

SPEAKER_03 36:04

Whole wars against Kansas now. The bad part about it is, like you said, it's still getting developed. This game honestly is a metaverse in and of itself. This is what this is what everybody is trying to do now. That is what this game is. It's trying to be Eve, the equivalent of what Eve is, but it's in a way of you can you have you can do way more in this than what you can in Eve when it's all said and done. Let me just say that too. Because Eve, you can do a lot of it.

SPEAKER_05 36:38

Yeah, and it's a lot of different things. But you can never do well. And a lot of things that's a conceptual on Eve, this is gonna this is gonna make uh tangible.

SPEAKER_03 36:46

Yeah. Like the only other game that's like this, and even then it's kind of like the detail isn't as great, but you get but it's a bigger universe, it's a more complete game, so to speak, is uh Elite Dangerous is another game that's like this. Where it's like Elite Dangerous was, it used to be where Elite Dangerous was the more full game of what Star Citizen was, where Star Citizen is you can walk around and shit. Elite Dangerous was now you just fly, you can just fly out into this universe and do whatever hell you want to do. Now they're kind of crossing a point where Elite Dangerous is now trying to make a more uh first person type field in their game, to where you can travel on foot in Elite Dangerous as well. But because of how glitchy has been, and then because of how a lot of uh Elite Dangerous has been done this thing where there was a lot of stuff that Elite Dangerous has said from Jump they was going to be able to do in the future. And the idea was that you would pay your, it's almost like saying you would pay your entry fee to get in for the show, and then you get certain parts of the show, now that they got you hooked, it'll make you pay for more and more and more. Where the one thing I will give star citizen over Elite Dangers is that once you pay your initial price, which is pretty much paying for the game itself, everything else you can pay for by in-game currency, which means you can work for it. You can make your money in the game, you can buy ships with the money you made doing missions to the game, you can buy uniforms with the money you made doing missions, you can once you pay, it's almost like saying that 40 bucks that you pay the beginner, whatever the fuck you paid for those ships in the beginning, just to get started, you don't have to pay that ever again. You can just play the game and then go from there. Um, it might take you a minute, but it's just like how Eve is. But Eve is like, Eve is like that, where it's like you can put money into that game. Like you can you can live a life in that game. It's kind of like it's kind of sad how like people's lives can get messed up in Eve. Like a man can't provide for his family if a dude City rules a corporation. Like that's kind of that's some wild shit. You can tell somebody, to tell you, hey man, they just blew up the factory and the ship that I was working on, so there's no Christmas. Like this money ain't coming into ways. Like that's that's some wild stuff. That's pretty much what Story Citizen is trying to do. But they're trying to make the first person version of it. It's it's wild. Like Kaize was saying, it's this game has been in early development for decades. Literally a decade.

SPEAKER_05 39:44

Yeah, it's insane. I played it uh because my friend, my friend plays it. So I played uh he um I I played it, he let me like fly a ship. It literally took me five minutes to get the ship off off the floor because I had to make sure I had to make sure atmospheric sliders were right. I had to make sure my landing gear was in the right position. I had to I had to make sure like it was all these sliders and things to check. Like like like I said, they they this is a simulation in the truest sense. They they want they want to make you feel like you you are in this. And and you know, and and and like and like you said, like you can you can play for your initial thing, but it's like it's like a lot of these uh mobile gotcha whatever game. You don't have you don't have to spend, but but for the people who have that predilection to spend, there there is no upward limit to to how much that you can drop.

SPEAKER_03 40:41

You can spend thousands on like on some of these ships. You can spend a thousand bucks on some of these ships, and like you're getting like the equivalent of the star destroyed. Yeah, but it's not like and and that's the thing.

SPEAKER_05 40:55

It will come out, it'll come out in three years, yeah. But they they are working on it, they are working on it, consistently. But the game, this game is not done.

SPEAKER_03 41:06

There is a game, the funny part, there's a game to be played, and there's a lot of people that enjoy it, but it is not done.

SPEAKER_05 41:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:13

It is the wildest thing I've ever seen in my motherfucking life. I've never seen an unfinished game look so good and irritated me so much. I've been keeping up with this game for the past week. Like just kind of convinced myself, do I really want to do this? Like, do I want to fall into this rabbit hole?

SPEAKER_07 41:31

That's the wild part though, and it's kind of like what I was kind of what I was talking about earlier. Like, like I think something that's really prevalent when it comes to a lot of like modern relationships to like gaming and a lot of different stuff, celebrities is like this, like, and I think it's it's it actualizes itself with gaming very differently. But in this particular instance with a game that's like we're constantly getting developments and like like looks into over, but like not actually getting the game itself, is like the aspect of this like kind of parasocial relationship to the development of the game or to the game that you actually don't own. So it's like and it kind of like feeds into a bit into that influencer aspect of like, oh, like if people are getting a bird's eye view or getting some sort of communication or update into what's happening with their, what, what they're what's going on there, then they feel somehow a part of the process. And so they feel they they buy in, they have more emotional buy-in and not actual buy-in into something that they act, they some people haven't actually put any money into yet. And it kind of continues to feel it's like you said, they're making more money off of just making the game rather than just releasing the game. And that's like it's very much what a lot of like folks on the internet do. They just make content that doesn't actually produce anything for anyone, but they make money off of just allowing people to look into this kind of like process, or which is ultimately like a fabricated process, more nonetheless, like this kind of fabricated lens through which they view other people's lives. And in this case, it's this kind of lens that's fabricated through which you view the progress and the process of this game. And it's like it in the most like crude analogy possible, it's like it's like the longest jack-off ever. It's like, oh my god, I'm gonna nut, but like you never actually get there, and it's just like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it's coming, it's coming. No, it's it's it's it's been how long did y'all say three years? No, God, no, it's been 10.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

This has been 10 years!

SPEAKER_03 43:30

This is what I'm taking. This goes this goes this goes a lot deeper than I think even that for the shit. One of the owners, the owner of this, the creator of this game, this isn't his first game, first and foremost. He before he started this game, he was actually working on other pieces of game before. But he's one of those people that it's almost like saying, like, when Peter Mullinix released Fable back in, I think that was what, that was about Years or so ago, 10, 12 years ago, plug in. Everybody was saying this is gonna be the biggest game possible. And we're gonna do this, this, and this, and this and this, and this. And there's gonna be all this shit in this game. And it's like, all right, bruh, just release the game. We just want an RPG. Now everybody's literally trying to, especially when it comes to space Odyssey games. Space Odyssey games are the new fucking metaverse. Like I said, it's supposed to be space odyssey games are their own universe now. Thanks to games like Eve and um, like I said, Elite Dangerous, uh, what's the other one? No Man's Sky. No Man's Sky, stuff like that. Like and now Starfield. And now Starfield has been thrown in that loop as well.

SPEAKER_07 44:45

But um, everybody's trying to create connects like a similar but inverse of what happened with No Man's Sky.

SPEAKER_03 44:54

Yeah, this is this is pretty much this is pretty much the same damn thing as No Man's Sky. Except no man's, except the the people didn't question this like they did No Man's Sky. Because they kept hiding behind the idea of it's still being developed, it's still being developed, it's still being developed. Look what they're adding. This is in there, this is in there, this is in there. Where No Man's Sky was like, oh yeah, no, we we added this, this, and this, and this is in the game, and this is in the game. None of this stuff was really in the game, and they didn't even say that it was coming to the game. Like No Man's Sky just had a wonderful turnaround to end up where it is now. But at first, they were crucified.

SPEAKER_07 45:32

Yeah, even like going into this laundry list of things, and you get the game, you can't do none of it. 90% of that list.

SPEAKER_05 45:40

Like, like, yeah, and that's and that's the and that's the big difference because they the they were much smarter than the No Man's Sky people. I mean, they also did they were much different projects to begin with. But uh No Man's Sky, they was like, yo, we we this is we're gonna tell you this because we really want you to buy the game. Whereas the the people the people in this game, they were they're they're telling, they're telling the truth. The difference is they they slowed, they slowed and drew uh drawn out all their truths and they realize and they realize the the more cool shit they talk to people about, the more instantaneous money they got. And and the more instantaneous money they got, the more the the more they can keep stretching this thing out. And uh, and even and even the thing that the Black Requirer brought before, like these uh these people are being immortalized in the game in different ways according to these Kickstarter goals and how much money they're spending. Like, you know, so so some people are like some people are like having like uh like they're getting like design input into some of the ships, or they're having like this port over here named after them, or like, you know, and like a lot of all these aspects that's gonna be in the game forever. And like, so like so it's like it is so it's a very like direct relationship between them and this part, like they're they are now a part of it, like they're almost like they almost feel like stockholders, only without any of the research value. But that's how that's how it makes sense. Uh I mean I mean, to be fair, you can uh I there is like a second, you can just like you can walk up to someone in the end game and sell that there's a second, but just like Eve is a there's a second market and people make money in real life off of Eve. People that did there's Eve real estate, real estate agents who make who make a living in real life.

SPEAKER_02 47:32

That is this there's like that joke that I made in the beginning, that's a true statement.

SPEAKER_03 47:39

Like, there's factory workers that like work in Eve. Like they work in the in spaceship factories, and if Espion Dodge ever happens, like if you hear some of these stories where somebody went through and they planned out for five years to take like a billion dollars from you know of this game money from this from this organization to fuck that organization up.

SPEAKER_07 48:07

If you ever in your melanated locked up life ever hear from my black ass mouth that I am working in a virtual factory, I want you to come to my home. I want you to chop off at least three different limbs, and I want you to commit me immediately. And I want you to make it.

SPEAKER_02 48:30

The first thing I'm asking you is how much you make it. Right. Before we have this conversation, how much you make it, bro? And if you make it more than me, I'm asking for a spot.

SPEAKER_07 48:43

I don't think it's gonna be a valid question because we can't even pay people equitable in real life, it's not gonna happen virtually. So if you ever hear me doing that shit and it's and it's not worth it, I wouldn't it it would have to be worth it.

SPEAKER_03 48:57

And if it's not, I want you to I want you to eviscerate me as I wouldn't say that either because they're overseas, they got plenty of places where people are playing games to get money. But we live in America.

SPEAKER_07 49:07

We live in America. Let's remember we live in the ghetto.

SPEAKER_05 49:13

Actually, that's specifically, because it is a game space, it those jobs are more popular over there. Over there, yeah, because they're because their currency is worth so much nothing.

SPEAKER_03 49:22

Yeah. That's what I was saying. It's there's a living. There's an actual, that's the scary part about it. There's an actual living. And with the way that the economy's going here, it might be more of a living there soon for us too.

SPEAKER_04 49:35

But like but uh um, you know, one other thing that I was thinking about that we definitely talked about a little bit earlier on with this was just the limits of or the changes in how acceptable open access is, and that it used to be open access was seems a very temporary thing, you know, so and often a very exclusive thing, like, oh, you know, select your people, get early access to a game and you know, explore it, or like oh, put in early access for like a year, maybe two, you know, and then you know you tweak the game based on that, and then you have a final project or a final product. Uh but now it's just often more profitable, you know, which Khanze mentioned of just responding to kind of the immediate requests, you know, but not ever completing a finished game. So you keep things early access just perpetually over and over. There's really a lot of disincentive to finish a game in some sense, exactly. Especially since early access often means you can get away with some errors and some bugs or a certain lack of polish that you know otherwise might not be acceptable. Now, in this case, it sounds like it's very polished in many ways. So that like might not apply as much, but definitely um, you know, you can it's almost like a beta version in a lot of ways. So you can just kind of say, oh, well, you know, we'll fix this for the final release. Or oh, yeah, it's a problem now, but we'll work on this later, but do you ever work on it later? And is it worth your money to work on it later?

SPEAKER_03 51:05

Or or also you gotta ask the question of even if you wanted to work on it later, has your game become so big that now there's such a that problem is so ingrained in there that if you try to fix it, you'll take up or mess up something else that may be more important and possibly make a bigger issue for the game, for the game entirety. So it so it becomes a scary, it becomes a scary game of uh of uh not dominoes, but uh Jenga at that point. Where it's like now it's like, yeah, we can message this code a little bit, but oh damn, this whole planet disappeared.

SPEAKER_05 51:40

Like it's like you know, so I mean honestly, that's I think that's one of the I think I think this because of this case specifically that's uh that's less of a problem because I think they've I I think they've like recased, I think they've replaced like the whole core of the game like almost like two and a half times now.

SPEAKER_03 51:57

Yeah, they're gonna do it again too, because they still got they still got a nice amount of bucks.

SPEAKER_05 52:01

Yeah, yeah, like and is and it's not only bucks, because of the because of the specific, because people people aren't paying money to to get like the the basis the basis of things down. So it's like there's a there's a lot of there's a lot of expectations that a regular game has that because because they never said that this game was done or was going to be done anytime soon, there's just a lot of stuff. There's no expectation there. So like so just like it's like, yeah, yeah, but definitely bugs. Yeah, we we're not even gonna tell you there aren't bugs. It was like it we're we are working on this piece of the game and we are working on this piece of the game. It's it's like and it's and it's always like the newest, shiniest, coolest version of the game as possible. That whatever's gonna get people to start spinning, but to start reaching more goals, to make another part, another higher tier part of the game that's that's even harder to work on, and then they'll go jump on that, jump on that. But uh like the basic shit that makes a game a game, that's not being done.

SPEAKER_07 53:00

Yeah, no, yeah, and that's what keeps this whole process like it's just how normal that's become just like getting an incomplete game or getting a game that has issues that need to be constantly updated fixed. And uh, you know, just all of us having grown up in the era that we did, like we got a complete game. If there was a bug in the game, it was like, oh, there's a glitch in the game, you can do something cool with it, or you know, there's just this thing here that you know might happen every now and again, but it won't like completely ruin the gameplay. It's just like, oh shit, that was random. But like it's to the point where it's it's like like you were saying, it's like companies don't even care to try and finish the game. It's like, oh, let's just put something out and we'll just keep updating it and patching it for until you know we're ready to move on to the next thing, and we've less left this thing behind to like rot.

SPEAKER_03 53:48

Everybody's chasing the the lore that comes with the consistent cash flow that MMOs sometimes bring in. So while while games like WoW and Lineage and EverQuest and all the earlier MMOs, though they felt like complete games to us, and because they most cases were, but then they were also, it was like they were complete games and they just wanted to add on to it. Now the idea is well, you know, we'll release we'll release three-fifths of this game, and then we'll just add the other two-fifths over time, and then and then we'll get to the point where we might add some other stuff. Most cases what happened is they might release one more fifth of that game if that, and then you're then they're like, oh, we didn't make it, pack up the money, start it on the next game. And it's like, so it's it's kind of I to one extent, yeah, it's it's a controversy. To another extent, I kind of commend them, star sentencing. Because I'm like, I remember when I first heard about it, I was like, that's a sham. And I just kept moving. But now looking at it and looking how far they made, I'm like, like if anybody, like, if anybody ever gets a chance, there's um a video I've been watching called uh Zero to Hero. It's this guy going on his Star Citizen trip, or his Star Citizen trip from like the cheapest package you can get to doing the quest to try and buy more ships. And it's an interesting video because he's like, I originally started playing this game on another account. I have I stopped and came back because I saw all the updates they had made. So I was just curious. And he's like, as you sit there and you're watching and play this game, and you're like, there's some cool things to it, but there's uh there's some glitches that kind of make you pause. But then you keep watching and play this game, and you're you're trying to convince, you're trying to remind yourself sometimes that this is an incomplete game. Like, that's the that's the funny part about this. This is an incomplete game, but this game looks more complete than most games that come out for 60 bucks. Like, I think that's scary about it. When you start to look at these Xbox games and these PlayStation games, you're in a new generation of stuff, and it's like, oh man, this this new game dropped, Cyberpunk. When that came out, how broken that was. I said, I'll wait now. It's a game, now it's the play the consumer game. You have to say, I'll wait until it's been out for a year.

SPEAKER_07 57:07

Oh, yeah, because that's when you get the name released the version with all the DLC and shit. So you can get it probably like $20, $30.

SPEAKER_03 57:14

That's and but that's if you're lucky and you're not messing with Nintendo, because Nintendo doesn't drop their price shit.

SPEAKER_05 57:20

But like they're saying trying to drop broken.

SPEAKER_03 57:24

Yeah, look, Nintendo, Nintendo will drop their prices when it's a new system if you're lucky. That's if they don't re-release that bitch. Oh, that's real.

SPEAKER_07 57:38

Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_03 57:40

I do, I I I look forward to Bayonetta 2. But like Nintendo will always get you because you know, it's Nintendo. But that is one of those companies where now they're not you might catch their stuff on sale. Maybe. And it probably won't be a mainline game. It's not it never is ever is. It rarely is. It probably will not be a Zelda or Mario game. Good luck with that.

SPEAKER_07 58:04

It ain't gonna be a Smash game, it's not gonna be a Pokemon game, like it's gonna be like Wii Fit.

SPEAKER_03 58:16

Switch boxing. It's gonna be some shit like that. The Wii tennis is like two dollars.

SPEAKER_01 58:22

Like, oh shoot, we still got that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:25

No, but yeah, like for everybody that has a chance, just look up Star City and judge for yourself.

SPEAKER_05 58:32

Yeah, it's fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 58:33

It's it's really fast, like it's really fucking fascinating.

SPEAKER_05 58:38

Yeah, they they turned being not being finished into a business model.

SPEAKER_03 58:42

It was great.

SPEAKER_00 58:49

A lot of controversy so far. Uh Bruiser Brody, cook biceps. Do you have a controversy since you seem to have all the insight on everybody else's? Do you have one of your own?

SPEAKER_03 59:01

Yes. Um, the incorporation, since we already talked about you know unfinished games and loot boxes and microtransactions. I like to talk about the new trend of NFTs and hopefully nobody will talk about it. I'm touching that. I'm touching that. Like, like now, nowadays, how a lot of games, uh, particularly one of the bigger ones is doing is Ubisoft. Because, you know, they're so great. But Ubisoft, how they try to, they started with, I think it was uh one of the Tom Clancy games. I can't remember exactly which one it was, but it was uh I can't remember the exact name of it. But it's uh their last Tom Clancy game that was um that just came out not too long ago, and they were trying to incorporate NFTs to the form of like little masks and uh body armor that you can get put aside just to say you have it. It really had no purpose in the game.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:06

Was it Ghost Recon?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:07

Yeah, it was Ghost, it was a Ghost Recon, but I can't remember which Ghost Recon it is. It was the last Ghost Recon that came out that was kind of like open world. And um as of late, they've been trying to incorporate, you're starting to see this come up with more and more companies. Ubisoft trying to do it. Uh I think it was Square Enix is talking about it now, um, which is scary because God, I'm just not trying to see that with any final. I'm not trying to see a bunch of NFT Final Fantasy VII shit pop up. But um, but it it's it's uh becoming a thing now where now everybody's trying to get in on that free money that they that they can move to, I guess, butter up the stocks and you know make things look a little better for themselves by just incorporating more and more NFTs in everything that they do. Uh this is starting, Nintendo is talked about it as well, actually. And it's starting to show up just more and more video game companies starting to focus more on NFTs, and it's starting to be making a very scary place where it's like now we thought microtransactions was as bad as it was just gonna get, and it's not they're like now we're gonna take it a step further. The thought I I really do want to hear since we already talked multiple um in multitude about the blue boxes and the microtransactions, what's everybody's thought on that as well? Because to me, that's fucking frightening.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:47

Why do you why do you think NFTs or it sounds like what you're saying is NFTs are kind of the next stage of collections, if you will, from corporations, studios, etc. Why do you think is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:00

Yes. So what's gonna most likely end up happening is a lot of times when these companies, Ubisoft is a good example of this, where Ubisoft was was worried more so about the NFTs, it seemed like, than they were the quality of the game. And now they're trying to move the NFTs and be like, okay, more people are gonna take part in these games. It's almost like we're gonna start to get the market of people that don't necessarily actually play the game by releasing these NFTs, and then all the crypto heads, all the you know, the crypto bros and um the people who are into that universe will start to buy in to that. And they'll start to want ownership in the video games. Now we'll start to move that over to uh everybody remember CSGO and how the skin game went with that a long time ago, where it was like now we got our NFTs are now our skins for these weapons.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:58

See, and I was I was gonna say I was actually gonna say in reference back to what uh the black McCoy said about you know uh Overwatch's loot boxes and how, you know, um, you know, they're it's not specifically selling you um enhancements to the game, it's just selling you the skins. And I'm similar to what I was saying about how uh with the uh microtrans uh microtransactions they're targeting kind of the younger generation, the NFTs are, I agree with you that the people who know about NFTs and crypto um are definitely buying into them, but I don't 100% believe their targets within the gaming sphere are specifically the people who know about crypto because it's kind of the same, not the same, but it um I use those two previous references to say the NFTs are the characters, they're the weapons, they're the different stylized things within these individual games. You use Ubisoft as an example. I can, I'm gonna use Fortnite as an example. Fortnite already had things that you can buy with real money. So now that you have crypto and you can purchase these NFTs of these different dances, these different characters, these different environments, uh, these you know celebrities within the sphere of uh uh of Fortnite, now you have all of these different things. People are buying into that and with and they're buying into that because of one, misunderstanding, two, potential understanding, and then three, potential wealth. Because at the end of the day, if the one thing you know about NFTs is someday it's going to be worth a lot of money and you're buying it for whatever amount you're buying for uh buying it now, you're like, oh, okay, well, I like the way it looks, uh, or I don't care what it looks like. I don't know anything about it, but somebody said I can make a lot of money with this later. So they'll spend X amount of dollars on this NFT from this game, and then way down the line, I'm gonna get like millions of dollars off of it. So people are buying into these NFTs within these games, within these studios, within these, you know, production uh um uh um uh within the production of all of these different items to try to either A, be hip or B, get some type of worth. So I agree with you, but the only thing I don't agree with is I don't know if it's specifically for the crypto heads. I feel like they're they're really preying on the ignorant individuals who don't know anything about NFTs, but just hear either A, I'm gonna make money or B, this looks cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:19

So I think I think there's actually a two-way street with that. For one, I think it was more so that they're trying to get the people outside of gang culture into the game.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:30

I thought you said gang G-A-N-B-G.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:32

No, like gang gang. But uhlers, man. No, no, um, no, like uh video game, they're trying to get people that are not into the video game culture and move them into the video game culture. But I think so, I think that's the early stage now. Because I think honestly, the the the microtransactions, since the loot boxes are getting hit up the way they are now, the microtransactions are starting to get shut down and consider. Is gambling in almost every way, shape, or form. They're trying to find a way to move into an like almost like saying they're trying to move into a more legal area so that they can take advantage of that now.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:14

So they can find a more morally great one to prefer.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:16

Pretty much. It's like they'll find a more they'll find a morally great area that they can abuse until it's no longer great. And I think right now that's what that is. But go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:28

Yeah, no, um, no, I 100% agree. And I think you gotta hit it on the head where so some of it is appealing to like the cryptocurrency, like NFT heads, but some of it's appealing to gamers who are otherwise outside of that realm, you know, and a lot of that is going to appeal to kids who just like their, you know, their favorite character or whatnot. And, you know, they're not even, they don't even fully grasp the whole like financial aspect to like what an NFT is and such. And, you know, so the idea of NFTs being integrated into games and games embracing this, it is terrifying to me. Like it's just absolutely awful because it has all of the worst elements of microtransactions, but with the more pyramid, scheme elements of NFTs, where there's this idea that, oh, well, you know, if I hold on to this long enough, like I can sell it later to someone else. Like it's um, its value is inherently based on how much you can exploit someone else to take it off. You know, so it's the idea that games are embracing this, like, I think it's gonna have a lot of this, a lot of similar issues is what we see with, you know, like blue boxes and even like micro some microtransactions where there's a currency element that's not really completely honest or upfront. And so a lot of people who buy into it don't fully understand it. Because, you know, realistically, most people don't fully understand like NFTs now, you know. So when you take that into an environment that has like, you know, younger people and such, that's gonna be a much bigger issue. Uh, and it's gonna be, you know, just something where it it inherently creates this culture, I would say a culture, but it inherently encourages a certain level of exploitation, you know. And granted, you know, a lot of the microtransactional model, it is exploitative by design to begin with. This just makes it worse, you know. And I think that I don't see any good coming out of this. Um, you know, I uh I didn't even realize I read about that in what game was it? Um I want to say uh it was an Ubisoft game, but I wrote about like one game, I didn't realize this was a trend that other companies were going towards. But kind of like doing a cursory scan now, it looks like this is something that a few different games are considering. So yeah, it's it's not a good look. Like, I don't think this will be good for the industry, this will be good for the consumers or the overall culture of video games, like at all.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:05

No, I I definitely agree. Um, another scary thing is that like since since this is since this is a brand new area that they that that there's even less regulation in, every every game developer, every gay developer is gonna be able to control the marketplace uh concerning the generation and handing out of these NFTs. So it's like they like like people are good people are like people are gonna be convinced that they're like earning money, but they're actually gonna be working like a less than minimum wage job for for these companies. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:47

Because you're 100% correct. Because the the thing about crypto in general, when it first came out, is and it's the reason why businesses and corporations didn't jump into it immediately, is because there is no control. There it's completely decentralized. You know, the purpose, the premise behind it is that it is this currency that they can't regulate. So that's why it's just you know, they weren't tapping into it, nobody was accepting it. They were just like, we ain't doing it, you hipsters, you youngsters, you go ahead and do what you want to do. And then eventually, when they got into this point where they found something that they could monetize, they found something that they could control in one shape or form, which is these NFTs, which all and at first, if you really think about it, it was celebrities that were really the big name ticket items that were doing it, but they were being backed by these, well, some of them were being backed by these businesses and entities. And then when they saw that, you know, this is the risk that they implemented and putting all the risk on, say, a Snoop Dogg or whoever was already omitted, they're like, oh shit, we're already making money from this. Now we're like, okay, now everybody, every single brand, every single studio, every single, you know, person is now coming out with an NFT. Because we could make NFTs, it's a little bit more, not difficult. It's a little bit more difficult. Well, it's a little bit more tedious now because before you can make an NFT out of everything, but now you have to have some type of um uniqueness to your NFT for people to want to want to engage in it and out and potentially purchase it. But you back like not even a year ago, uh two years ago, you can make an NFT out of practically anything and somebody would buy it for an exorbitant amount of money. But now that all the corporations have, like, you know, I'm sure those who are listening, if you've heard it before, I'm a wrestling fan. So WWE has NFTs. Other wrestling promotions have NFTs where it's of their characters. So if you like a specific wrestler or or or or character, you can buy an NFT of that character, and you're the only one that has it. Incorrect. They actually make 80 or 50 or 60 or 3 or 10 and a random number so that a select few, but here's the difference. If you buy just one, you can sell it for any price. If you have a select almost like a Willy Wonka ticket, you can sell it for any exorbit amount, this many of them. And now people are gonna run after these particular NFTs um and try to purchase them and be the only one, this uh uh key person, the select few that has this item. It's it's boundary.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:05

They still got now, there's still people out there just making whatever and uh they're gonna be able to do it. And they make money off it. There's like the whole uh, I don't know how many people we heard about the whole story of there was a lot of people from the adult the adult video industry that were making themselves in MFT, NFTs, and then just pulling that shit. Like it's like as soon as they sold a bunch of the uh pictures and stuff, just all of a sudden, oh, pull it, and then like you run off with the money and nothing. The people don't get anything, they just lost their money. So it's like so it was yeah, it's it's uh NFT is still a very act like the uh frontier, we'll say financially or act currency, so to speak.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:52

NFT's coming every every time there's a new frontier, porn will hit it first.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:58

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:04

It doesn't sound really wild to me because I guess, and this may just be more my like dystopian mindset of where we are currently as like a social social society and an economic one. Like people with access to more resources or enough resources or at least enough uh folks to do things like that with things with non-NFTs have been doing that for a while. So, like, in from my perspective, NFTs are just the latest in a long line of, not particularly scams, but uh the latest in a long line of schemes of sorts uh to be used to exploit the perceived commodity of like um of access, right? Like it in my mind, the NFTs are the same thing, are similar to uh Firefest, actually. Like Firefest was something that sold a lot of um ideas about what it means to access these kinds of things, about uh exclusivity, about you know, wealth, about being a certain being a part of a certain kind of class, about you know, exuding this kind of like otherness from the like larger population of people who did not have access to this thing, right? So even when it comes down to uh things that we like, figures or those aren't too different from NFTs, because even when we get figures and things like that, they have to come with some level, they're produced in a limited fashion, they come with a level of certification. NFT doesn't sound too much different from that, at least as based on you know kind of how it was described or how you were talking about it, because if I don't see a huge difference in making like three NFTs and selling them for a certain amount, and then saying, oh, they're worth this amount like X amount of time later, in the similar fashion that one can do with like a collectible that they bought in 1980 or figures that we buy like currently. Like these are continued.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:01

His I guess my way to lock it, so it does prevent that from happening. So that's that would be the one difference.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:07

And that that's the only thing that doesn't make that a relevant point for me, is because you can literally do that with a lot of different things. Like there's there, and you can do that with a lot of different things, but that doesn't in and of itself make it inherently valuable. I guess in that that's part of my part of my more abstract mindset in terms of things. It's like the exclusivity, the exclusive, the perceived exclusivity, the perceived, oh, I am the only one who has this thing that is virtually worthless. But because it's the only one of this thing, it's the most valuable thing ever. It's like if you're the only one who had a diamond, it's like, how is that diamond worth something if no one else actually has it and can use it for anything, or if it doesn't even like have any particular use in and of itself, but just sitting there and being what it is. It's like imposing, it's like the value of it comes from what we put into it or what we invest into it rather than what is actually there inside of it. So it's like it's weird for me because again, my abstract brain is like, wow, this is just like juggling around literally worthlessness and literal worthlessness, and then being like, oh, but it's you know, it's it's it's it's this new like fresh commodity that we can like buy and trade, but really it's just it's it's it's literally just data. Um, and data with no real inherent meaning or real inherent value, but because we have developed this perception of that value and what it means to exclusivize things, and which is, if nothing else, if not human, extremely American, and if that anything else, extremely capitalistic, it just allegedly makes it more valuable. So it's it's almost it's it's almost like farcical, if nothing else. It's like a in in a very kind of cliche joker fashion, it's a very bad joke, and one that we continue to tell like year after year, century after century, generation after generation, and people continue to buy into it and justify it, no less. And it's it's it I would say it's sad, but it's it's kind of funny in a sad way.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:11

Yeah, no, I mean it really is just the ultimate form of like artificial value. You know, it's completely falsified or created based on the perception of, like you said, like it's nothing, there's no real use to it or need to it. It's just it's all you know based on exclusivity, which doesn't have any inherent value on its own. So yeah, 100% agree. Um, and one thing I was thinking of, and this was really followed Conze's point about just all the issues around this being deregulated, a huge factor that leads to or it relates to a lot of these problems that we see with not even just this, but with microtransactions and whatnot. Um, it's that laws really don't keep up with tech, like at all.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:55

Because all those people are old.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:58

The main part of that is that a lot of those people they barely understand the internet. You know, I think remember what was the Facebook hearings where they had to explain how oppressive. Oh my god. Like it was it's terrifying. So of course, like this is gonna be the wild, wild west for a very long time, you know, and it's you know, it encourages all types of exploitation and manipulation and all of that, you know. So it's it really is scary, right? And we're starting to see the outcomes of some of that now. But um, this this is just the beginning, honestly.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:30

Which is sad too, because I remember when NFGs first came out, it was supposed to be a form of helping the artists get their money, exactly, and not get screwed over by the kind of, especially when it comes to musicians and not get screwed over by the uh by the uh music industry that was so good at it. So it's like so it was and it was and you have start to see like artistic value in it to some extent, um, with you know, particular people making, you know, special pieces that they wanted to sell but still make value off of their work.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:07

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:07

So then it was like, okay, they sold it to a person, and it was, like you said, the idea of exclusivity and FOMO, but like it's like trying to really catch on to catch people and be like, oh, I don't want to miss out. But it goes back to the same thing of how car companies might make a particular number of a special car, or how Nike might make a particular number of a special shoe. And now it's like only five people in the world got if you want to be one of those five to buy it off one of the other five, you gotta come up with a lease bill. But it's not like it's like it is just a shoe that you never wear because once they get a crease, they're done. So it's like so. Now you lost a lot of money. It's like they they used to be this used to NFTs used to be for the purpose of the artists. Now it's just like I understand when you were you're going back to the uh to the days where it was for the artists. These video game companies, they're not doing it like movies. They're NFTs, like they only they had 175 people that or something like that that bought it. They wanted more. It didn't matter that the value was dying every time somebody got a piece. Like it was like they wanted more. So it was, you know, so it I think it ended up like the what for what they sold. If anybody was to try to sell, they might make 15 bucks or something like that. Like some stupid low money. So it was like it's the way that they're taking this, the way that and like I said, video game companies, they nowadays it just seems like they're just trying their hardest to find a way to just, you know, controls the consumer. But um they're like like Ubisoft is the ones doing it now. Wait till EA gets involved.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:57

Wait till I'm just blizzard. Like, wait until Tensent gets involved. Think about this.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:06

Like there's some companies that they're just rubbing their nits late right now.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:11

I'm sure Tencent's already involved.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:13

They probably are. They just haven't said anything over here yet. But uh, but yeah, like like like there's so many companies where it's like like once they get involved, it's a wrap on that. Like it's like it's a whole rap on that. It's about to be bad. So many, so many video game companies that just waiting to see how this, to see how it plays out, or to see how they can figure out their way to get into it. Um so yeah, we are only seeing the beginning of this. It's about to get way, way worse.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:45

Yeah, I mean, and that's and that's if people jump in. People do have to participate, and they have to and they have to prove the because this this is still like a really heady, kind of weird concept. So like not this this isn't necessarily this description is not necessarily exciting to the average person. So I'm sure they will get people, but I'm not sure how long it how long it's gonna hold, or you know, I I th I think it's still counting. It can be the most the worst thing ever, but I also I think it can be kind of fatty, you know. So it depends on the the implementation and uh and also just the how how how it goes around. Like if it if it's if if if this is going around like as the worst thing ever in the antichrist additional form. Wow, that's that's actually something first of all.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:33

Oh, sorry. No, I was gonna say that's actually funny because when when I first told a very religious woman about NFTs, that's literally what they said. Oh my god, the antichrist. I was like, oh, that's no, I was just explaining cryptocurrency. Oh, oh, this is bad.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:52

Um the market of the beast is the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:55

I mean, not the mark of the beast, but specifically the fact that all currency will be one, yeah, the religion, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:00

Okay, yeah, I was about to say they can't question that.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:05

Um and and I also want to, you know, say about uh the point that the black McCoy was making uh regarding um the the interest into the currency and you know how the the fat the well it's a little bit of what the black uh the black mcway and what Kazi said about the fadness of the the money it's it's it is something that uh it's completely dependent on the manipulation that is that is set up by the individuals who are handing out or creating the NFTs. And as as um uh Bruza Brody was saying, I was basing it off of my initial understanding of NFTs and when it first came out and who it was originally for and who was originally using it, but it's it's it's been completely perverted. Uh I mean, I as as we know with the porn industry as well, completely perverted. And it's taking it from something that could have been um beneficial and influential for these different industries and turns it into something that's pretty much microtransactions. Um uh it's all it's all just based off of the manipulation game. And uh it I the the sad part is uh kind of going back to what Kaze just said, I don't want it to be a fad because of the benefit that the NFTs could have produced, but it may need to be a fad because of the way that it's being pervert perverted. Um, because I just I just think about all the corporations that are utilizing it. Like, for example, let's talk about real quick, as you said, um uh uh Bruce of Brody's Ubisoft, like so many characters that they've turned into NFTs and so many things that were created by developers or artists or you know, uh uh uh actors, none of them are seeing that money. You would think, like, and that's what I'm saying. Like if they were taking what's being made from those items and giving it to the people that created it or getting it to the people who are who are its uh its core, then I'm like, okay, cool, let's keep it going, let's keep it moving. But the fact that this is just another cash grab for these companies to get that isn't that aren't being seen by the artists and the people behind them. If they are, I hope they are. If they're not, shame on you. But anyway, um, we want to of course move on to the Black McCoy. Do you have a conspiracy? But um, gaming conspiracy uh that you wanted to talk about today.

SPEAKER_07 1:25:27

Uh controversy, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:29

Um more specific. That's the C word. I knew I was forgetting it.

SPEAKER_07 1:25:32

Uh many C words. Um, but the I kind of wanted to move away, uh, but still kind of keep in the same spirit of uh finances. So one of the things that really stuck out to me specifically during uh 2020 um was a report that came out of the different companies and the compensation packages that their CEOs received in 2020. Now, all of these compensation packages that the CEOs received were six figures or more. And now 42 of the CEOs that were listed in the report, out of all, like out of 27 out of the 42 CEOs listed on the report, they received compensation packages of more than 1 million. And that total compensation um was decided by like a board of directors and was ratified by like shareholder votes. And it could have ended being like, you know, a mixture like that as well as like um salary bonus stocks and benefits and things of that nature. Um and so what some of those numbers looked like were like um so the top, one of the top ones on the list was uh Robert Anticall with Platika. Um that person's compensation package was $372 million. Um mind you, this is a compensation package for uh the COVID pandemic in 2020. But the more what it's funny enough, kind of wrapping back to Blizzard as it always does, uh was number two, uh Bobby Kotik. No, Bobby Cotick! That compensation package was 154.6 million. And not only was it that much, but Bobby Kotick's particular compensation package, according to the report, was roughly the same as the average cost of paying 1,560 employees.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:30

They let go of a lot of people the next coming years, too. They let go of a shit ton of people the coming years after that.

SPEAKER_07 1:27:38

And like outside of that entire um controversy they have with like sexual harassment, like that in and of itself is positively like SVU levels of heinous to me. Um dun dun, but because like how can it's interesting and it's disgusting to me. How when it comes to the gaming industry and it comes to the people who genuinely make the make these games happen, that they end up being so disposable. But the CEOs of these companies who are all ready making exorbitant amounts of money receive these compensation packages comparable to like over a thousand employees who end like Bruce already said end up being let go, whose lives were like directly impacted by the fact that they had to one be let go, two were not go were not being paid enough, or like got or were not being paid at all due to the COVID-19 pandemic and like the lockdown and everything in 2020. But people who were so high up on the ladder were so easily accommodated for in the it, it's it's almost it almost like pains me to say the word compensated for next to nothing, especially when they did not need it. And it was the people so close to the ground who needed it more. And it's interesting because when you extend the reach or you extend the influence of you know the audience that helps keep uh these companies kind of, you know, not running, so to speak, but helps, you know, continue to keep the cash flow because we enjoy and love the games and things that and a lot of the content and like products that they produce and stuff like that, like to be so to be more invested in the the bottom line of a CEO rather than the devs and the artists and all of those who work direct, who work much closer to the actual audiences to make sure that they're taken care of compared to someone who does no work near, no, who does no work near the level of the work that they do or has to put up with the level of working conditions that they do on a daily basis, or like on a more or less on an hourly or minute by minute basis, is horrendous. Like the fact that the fact that the way our values are the way that our the way we perceive levels of value in terms of occupation as well as in terms of like hierarchy, um, and how we dare to apply a a dollar a dollar value to people's positions rather than the work that they do is absolutely ridiculous to me. Because it doesn't make sense to me that someone who sits that far at the top gets compensated more not even aptly, like more inappropriately than someone who genuinely needs it. Like I can't break my thought process away from that because there's nothing that there's there's next to nothing that anyone can tell me that a CEO could do that would warrant them making billions of dollars in compensation money when they already make well over make six plus figures in many instances, and not all, when they have people working under them who have this cons who put in all of this intensive, uh like intensive in terms of labor, intensive in terms of like hours and time, they put in all this work, and then they're just they they don't matter enough to be compensated with the money that this singular person does. And even for like a lot of these companies on the list, like they are not all in the US, but the money that they earn, or the numbers that were given, they were converted at the exchange rate of 2020 or you know, at the time. And still, it is it is outlandish, it's horrifying. And I say that because a lot of the times I think it's very easy for us to see gaming as this, you know, this kind of like layman kind of pedestrian thing that a lot of that the kind of this kind of like proletarian class does. And it's so difficult not to see it as just another instance at which there is a there's a clear subjugation or clear class divide here. And regardless of the problems that are, you know, not not ignoring the problems, excuse me, that occur on our level in terms of that engagement, like there there has to be some, there has to be some sort of like there has to be a point where we look at not only our own community, but our relationship to this industry and ask some extremely difficult questions that may make it more uncomfortable to be to engage in it in the way that we do. And for me, this is genuinely one of them. Like it like it almost like if gaming didn't do for me the thing that I needed to do because of all the other shit happening in my life, I would want to just stop doing it because that does that it doesn't make sense that you would want a game developer, someone, you won't want a game developer, an artist, like a consultant, a writer, uh all these people who bring these things together to be compensated in a way that doesn't put that doesn't leave them at risk for basically like day-to-day obsolescence and um disposability. And yet somehow we we not only, as uh like for all intents and purposes, a proletarian gaming class, um profit off of their suffering, profit off of their dejection, profit off of their exploitation, but also reap so many benefits from their labor. Even now, like just talking about it is in and of itself like while a conversation that we could normally have outside of this podcast feels almost almost cyclically inclined towards just not oblivion, that's a that's a melodramatic word, but just I don't have the word right now, and that's a first for me, but like wow, it it's a lot, and I don't, I don't, I don't understand. And I want to because I need regardless of regardless of what the justification is, like I oftentimes I don't care about justifications because if it's a bad one, then I'm going to say that it's a bad justification, or like if regardless of the reason, if the reason doesn't make sense, or if it's a stupid ass reason or it's a fucked up reason, like that does that it's that that's almost worse than actually having done the thing itself because now you have a fucked up reason for doing the thing, and now it's just like the whole thing, it's just like a whole trash, a garbage truck or a train of garbage, train of garbage trucks that you were leading to this landfill. I'm like, oh yeah, it's okay. But you know, that was a clumsy metaphor, but nonetheless, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My my my my marks of spirit is hurting over that information.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:18

Yeah, it's so this really is just one of the biggest and most gross atrocities, you know, uh, when we think of income inequality and all of the things that come out of that. Um, how it affects, you know, not just gaming, of course, but like health, education, every aspect of navigating society here. And the thing is, it's it's something that we often just take for granted as a status quo now, but this is relatively recent in our history. It's just been on a more upward trend or an extreme trend, where back in I think 1970s, um, the average CEO made about 30 times as much as their lowest paid worker, which is still a lot, like that's still very disparate. I wouldn't even say that's okay by any means. But today it's about 360 times the lowest paid worker. So this just not paying the lowest paid worker anymore. Like not enough. Right, exactly. You know, um, our and has our productivity has actually gone up and up and up. Wages have either stagnated or sometimes decreased related to that in terms of actual purchasing power. So there is this huge issue here, and it's something, you know, I think one of the biggest barriers to this conversation is we are so culturally directed towards like admiring the wealth, you know, and seeing ourselves as these just one step away from being a millionaire. And if we just work a little bit harder, we'll get there. And that's not quite how wealth works in this country. It's not. But seeing how, and we attribute differences in wealth to differences in work, which you know, the example I always use with some of my students is all right, a typical hospital CEO makes about 25 times as much as a full-time nurse. Do you think the CEO works 25 times as hard as a nurse? Probably one of the most well-known, hardworking, you know, occupations in the healthcare field. Like no one who knows anything about nursing would say yes to that. No one. You know, but we seem to think that, oh, you know, it's because there's just it's just harder work, and that's how you like get that stream income, and that's not it at all. And still to the gaming industry, I mean, the big one of the big things we're seeing come out of that more and more is it stifles creativity because you're just overworking people to death. Yep. So, you know, you have people who can't stay in the industry, or to stay in the industry, it is destroying their life because they're getting underpaid, overworked, and it's exhausted and it's no way to live. So, yeah, this is, I mean, this is a massive, massive problem. You know, and the other um kind of you know, murder-related instract things when I think of this is around animation and how animation studios, you know, treat their workers. And, you know, it's um it is something I want to feel hopeful about this changing, but at least in the direction of this country, I have to have both a massive cultural shift and a massive power shift in terms of you know who's voting or who's uh creating laws, um, and so forth. But that's um I don't know. I really don't know. And I hate to like, especially this being the last general topic of the podcast, I hate to like end so hopelessly, but it's frustrating. It is genuinely frustrating.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:47

Yeah, another like really uh sad depress depressing part about that is like is the is this the you know is the just the relationship to art that this that this whole thing has. Like this is like there's so many uh just visions that are like tied to this industry and tied to these companies to where like we're like like we don't get to we don't get to see these unless unless they are churned through this machine. And it's like and it's like and it's people with like these amazing ideas, and it's and it's like when it's like okay, well, you know, you can you can go do you can go be indie and good luck with that. Or or you can or you can just have this idea, or you can work for this company, or you can have this idea purchased by this company, and it'll just be churned out through, you know, all these different voices and all these different eyes, and and you know, and and and and and and now your project is is uh not you know this this whole studio, they're gonna go through crunch and and be overworked and and like we and like we said, underpaid, and like you know, and all that, you know, and all that's gonna be and and what's gonna be squeezed out is which is what is left of your vision, and is like the saddest what I can imagine. Saddest representation.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:16

It is uh two, there's one other thing I'd like to point out too is um, as we said, like I said, how close this is to art, but there's another company that also has this horrible thing with them, and that's EA, and that's with Andrew Russell. Um same same situation. I will give him this though, he's not as bad as Bobby C. Because like if you look at Blizzard over the last couple of years, Andrew is in the top five on this list.

SPEAKER_07 1:40:46

Like it's so bad.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:48

It's so bad with Blizzard, like it's like they're getting sued by California labor laws. That that rabbit hole goes deep, dog. Like Bobby Connecticut is out here, he he doesn't care about these people. Like, like Blizzard doesn't care about these people. Blizzard Activision doesn't give a fuck about these. Yeah, Bobby Sloppy Cottage. Bobby Sloppy Cotton. Like you said, like Blizzard Activision does not care about their workers. They they haven't cared in a long time. They uh it's showed in their work to some extent, it's shown in the decline and what Blizzard once was to what it is now. Hell, it shows in the decline to what Activision once was.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:34

I was just about to say, yeah, Activision One.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:36

Yeah, because Activision, Activision, when Sony first showed up, Activision was right there. Yeah, Activision was right there. But like they were they were one of the top companies, they couldn't do no wrong. But like it's after that merger, and they just got you starting to see the money hungry creep in, and that was around the time I think Bobby Copter took over, and then next thing you know, you start to hear all the stuff going on behind the scenes and how they treat their workers, the racism, the sexism, the sexual harassment, so on and so forth.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:08

And it just gets the eviscerate my entire controversy. So I don't have to say anything. Thank you. I appreciate it. No, no, I appreciate it. No, no, you're good. You're doing a good job.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:17

It's targeted, it's targeted, but like, god damn.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:22

Like remember the number I gave you earlier when Bobby Connect was like 154.6 million? That broke that down to $77,300 per hour.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:34

Yeah. Makes sense.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:36

Yeah, it doesn't make sense, and that's the fucked up part. No, no, it doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:44

That that's that's that's the the excuse for if you put a couple lines to NFT at 666. That's a market abuse. Like like Bobby Cottage is something evil. That's that's super village. That's like Lex Luther at this point. I think Lex Luther takes better uh people take care of people.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:04

He was a great president. He was a great person. Don't do that like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:15

Like, that's crazy. Like, there's super villains that have more limits than Bobby Cott.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:19

Like, it's like truth, truth has always been stranger than fiction.

SPEAKER_07 1:43:23

But Ron Duke was an asshole, but he took care of that country. Amazing ruler.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:30

Uh, yep, fantastic. Same thing with Black Adam. Yep, yeah. But I I legit think that like uh the acquisition of Blizzard is like top five saddest things that has ever happened to me in the video game industry. Like, literally, like you know, and I didn't know, I didn't know, like my heart broke a little bit when I heard it, but just I didn't know the It was gonna be this bad the ripple effect, the battle royale level of gore and violence that was gonna happen inside my broken heart. I was not aware of it. I just didn't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:02

I don't think any of us did. I don't think anybody was ready for that. Like, like I don't think anybody was ready for what followed that whole shit. Like it's like like every the the trickle-down effects that that has led to, and hopefully, I don't think it will, but hopefully, after uh the merger of um oh Microsoft, Microsoft buying them out, I hope that does do something for their reputation, betters it, but from what I understand is not, and Bobby Cottage is still gonna be there. So, like what I said, Bobby Cottage actually is still gonna be there as well in some wrong shape or form.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:42

So I mean, but but uh but I know one thing is they they are gonna be the overarching company and what they and what Microsoft Microsoft ain't the nicest people, but what they're not is what they aren't is not sloppy. Also true. So a lot of the garbage and random shit, uh like just a lot a lot of the baselines that this Microsoft has in the company, they're just gonna have to adapt those. Trickle three no, yeah. So so so I think they'll I th I think just automatically they're they're gonna get a whole lot a whole lot better out there. They're not gonna be a better company instantaneously, uh, but uh but I think over uh being underneath Microsoft because Microsoft just has different values and standards, right? Uh and anybody would be better.

SPEAKER_07 1:45:26

I mean, if anybody taught us, if anybody taught us, you know, trickle down doesn't work well, it's Reagan.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:33

I missed that one. Trickle down economics, ergonomics. It doesn't work. Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't hear what you said.

SPEAKER_07 1:45:38

So, like trickle down in any sense is an awful concept for everybody. Well, except for those at the top, but you know, yeah, it's more of a circle jerk, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:48

Wow. But um, well, like I said, uh, you know, Bruiser Brody kind of took mine, so and he kind of said everything I was pretty much gonna say. So I don't have anything else to say. Um, other than the fact that let's see what happens, I suppose. I mean, really, I was gonna talk about all of the different lawsuits and actually no, you really did say everything. Lawsuit, sexual harassment, racism. Yeah, you covered everything. Yeah. I did that quick too. That was that was a good one. Yeah, you summed up what I was probably gonna say for two minutes within one stanza of talking. I'm impressed and also saddened. Um, well, then that's the end of the episode. Thank you everybody for listening. Uh, we have covered quite a few uh gaming controversies, uh controversies, sorry. Um, from money to uh cryptocurrency to uh ancient actually, actually, I think at the top of our list is Bobby. I think he uh yeah, I think he did everything on the list.

unknown 1:46:50

Huh?

SPEAKER_02 1:46:50

Look at that. Bobby Cottage. Bobby's Bobby Cottage.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:57

Um that won't be the title of the episode, but we'll put it somewhere by the same. We just like me. We'll see what happens. Oh Lord. Uh so nope, but we thank you for listening. Um we actually want to, you know, extend a hand to all of our listeners. You know, feel free to, you know, send a message to our mailbag. If you have any other gaming controversies that you'd like us to talk about, we're gonna start doing social media discussions with our panelists, uh, where we'll, you know, open up the the floodgates? Nah, more so just the chat boxes to be able to communicate with the listeners and talk about some of these topics and then bring them into some of our episodes. Um, so stay tuned for that. I forget what topic is coming up first, but it'll be sometime soon, probably on Facebook, on our Facebook page. So Instagram. Or Instagram, yes. Uh also uh thank you for everyone who came out to our uh BlurCon live episode uh last week. It was phenomenal. We enjoyed ourselves. Uh, we enjoyed the group uh that was there. We got a little uh a nice little uh back and forth with the uh uh the live audience, if you will. So uh if you haven't already listened to that episode, go ahead and check it out. Uh then of course we're getting ready to start our melanated solstice as we, you know, uh our second year. We're all very excited for all of the different uh artists and you know uh creators, uh business owners who are gonna be on our uh following episodes during the course of the rest of the summer into the fall. Uh so please stay tuned for that. If you know anybody who you would want to recommend to be one of our guest stars on our one of our uh future episodes, feel free to you know drop a line either in uh uh on social media or in our mailbag, which is either uh the blurred spectrum at umbralstarcade.com or theblurrspectrum at gmail.com. Uh then of course you can find us on social media, uh the blurred spectrum on Facebook and Instagram. Uh and uh wait, yes, yes, yes, and then blurred spectrum on Twitter. Um, and then um uh oh myself, yes. So you can also find me uh on Instagram, Suchi underscore no underscore shoguns on Instagram or at Blurred Creations, uh Blurred Creation Shop on Facebook or Blurred Creations on Instagram, Twitter, um Instagram, Twitter, eh, and TikTok. Um and then of course we have uh the rest of our panelists, Kaze Shinryu. How can you be found? How can people talk to you? How do you want to be reached out and touched?

SPEAKER_05 1:49:29

I don't really want to be touched right now, but uh uh Bear 3B on the ground. Uh where one can reach me out here.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:39

Sorry. The doctor Facebook. Uh Bruiser Boating, Coke Biceps, uh shampoo bracelets. How can you be reached?

SPEAKER_03 1:49:52

Um, you can reach me at uh shampoo bracelets on Instagram or you know, shambib87 on Twitter, most likely on Twitter. If I go into uh Star Citizen by any shares, I'll I'll I'll put my stuff there. Um also check out the the Blur Creation on either Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook, or go to uh the Blur Creation website, merchandise, pick it up. Um yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:26

And uh the Black McCoy, how can you be found reached?

SPEAKER_07 1:50:30

Um, I can be found likely at like the probably around the seventh circle of hell in Doc Things In Fun. I like to chill out there. Um, it's it's it's really comfortable, it's the most comfortable place right now. But um, otherwise, uh, you can find me at the Black McCoy on Instagram. Uh, you can also find me at not blackbychoice.com or not black by choice on Instagram as well as on Facebook. Also, uh, I do want to say a quick thank you because there are a lot of people who randomly message me telling me happy non-binary awareness week. I appreciate that so much. So thank you all in joining this week. And uh I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:02

Awesome, awesome, awesome. So, of course, thank you all for joining us today. Thank you for listening. Uh we'll be back for another episode next week. Uh, stay tuned, and uh, as I always say, Sayonara.