The Blerd Spectrum
The Blerd Spectrum
Oversexualization of Women in Anime
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This week the crew combs over the crevices and creases of fan service and the not-so-sudden cycle of sexualizing women in some not-so-subtle ways.
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Welcome back to the Blurred Spectrum Podcast. We are back again this week for a topic that we've been uh having on the docket for the last several months, but it's something that I think all of us are familiar with. It's something that is glaringly blatant uh in our every week or daily watching of uh anime and different uh varieties of content. Um it's something that's based off of uh something someone would call fan service, uh, you know, where uh they appease to a certain demographics, uh uh sexual sensibilities. Uh this particular episode is about the oversexualization of women in anime. A little offshoot of cartoons, but specifically let's talk about anime. What'd you say? I said so same thing. Bones versus fuss. Um so, you know, this is a, like I said before, this is a topic that uh one of our panelists had come up with, and we all kind of agree that it is something that, you know, as we watch anime on a consistent basis, new anime, new content comes out. Uh, but as time has gone on, you know, when we were younger, this, you know, it's just a thing that we just had to adapt to. It's like we felt like we had no say, we're watching this content, it's whatever. But as we got older and things became more apparent, now we're like, okay, my eyes are a little bit more open. I can see more things, and I feel like something's going on. There's a pattern here. So we're gonna talk a little bit more about that. Uh, but first, of course, I have to uh introduce our panelists, starting with myself, Suchino Shogun, your moderator. Also, we have the Black McCoy. Uh, we have Ms. Kittles.
SPEAKER_02Hello, everyone. Hello.
SPEAKER_05And we have Sayone Cosplay.
SPEAKER_02Hello.
SPEAKER_05So, uh, with this episode, uh, I wanted to give each of our panelists the opportunity to uh kind of give their, you know, as we've done in previous episodes, you know, what introduced you to anime, or you know, what was your first, you know, anime, or uh what you know brought you into shonen and all this other stuff. But this question is when is the first time that you realized or you uh uh you noticed like the first anime that you noticed that women were being oversexualized? And this could be what'd you say?
SPEAKER_06No, I'm just laughing because I mean it I it could be a variety of places.
SPEAKER_05Um it could be in a standard anime that you didn't expect, or it could be in one that was overly emphasizing those specific type of things, or it could be in those uh more um what's that word that should be?
SPEAKER_01Hentai, tentai. That's what it's called.
SPEAKER_05So we'll start, we'll start. Well, since Sayude was uh uh seems to want to tell us uh uh what was the question? So the question is what was the first anime where you witnessed or realized uh that women were being over sexualized?
SPEAKER_01Overly sexualized, overly sexualized. I'll say ninja scroll. Yeah, that was yeah, I'll say ninja scroll for sure. Um just I guess uh I can't even say hentai light because it was like on the cusp of girl and hentai, to be honest.
SPEAKER_06It was like a very cusp of what and hentai?
SPEAKER_01Goro like um, like girl, like violence, like Japanese. Oh no, no, okay. These are like blood blood porn, like war porn. Like um, so uh it kind of was like on the cusp of like goro and hentai for me. It was just, I don't know, the the women, even though they were strong, like I forgot which character was. I think she was like an assassin or something, and like if you sleep with her, her like pussy juices was like or she'll kill you. This is a wildness, but it was just like you know, she was she was, I believe she was like strong, but then just ended up being like the damsel in distress. Like, oh please don't do that. Yes, I'm gonna get you. And it was just it was just a a little bit much for me. Um, there was a lot of like sexual harassment and like scenes of like rape in a way, but that was probably the first for me. It was like it and again, it was just the way how they did it. They made it so that it was fetishized the scenes when the women were captured. Um, like these creatures would just use their tongue in very interesting ways, suggestive ways, um, on the film.
SPEAKER_06You stumbled on that that that phrase. You okay?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it was it was um it was very uh it was a lot. It was a lot. Um so definitely ninja scroll. That was back in the 80s, I believe. Late 80s, late 80s or very early 90s for me. Um, I I guess it was the type, it was a shonen, um, a shonen, was it an anime or a movie? I think ninja scroll was more of a movie, but um I've never seen it, but I don't know. Yeah, it's like back in the 80s. So like um it was like a lot of violence, but a lot of like sex and violence, which was fine. But I think what it was the the they they made the the watcher um 1993 movie. 1993 movie, okay. So yeah, I know it was like between early late 80s or very, very early 90s, but it was like the damsel in distress, it was like, oh, I like it, but I don't like it, but I don't like it, but I like it. That was the type of feel that they were giving to the watcher, which I did not. Um, you should not fetis rape. That's exactly like what it was doing. Um, and and that kind of really bothered me for sure. Um, yeah, especially like how um how the uh what you call it were um just being taken advantage of. The um the fight scenes just always had kind of like a suggestive feel, like a like a sexual violent undertone. Um, but it was a classic of its time, don't get me wrong. But at for me, that was when I saw I'm like, oh wow, this is like really kind of like hardcore uh for me. Because I never seen at that time an anime that was not innocent. And that for me was an anime that was not innocent at all. Uh right next to like Akira. So it was like that the time of Akira, the time of um Spriggan, like that was the very graphic 1990s art style that didn't have as much, I would say, censorship like it does now. Because if you do that now, it'd be considered hentai.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_01So yeah.
SPEAKER_05Okay. Uh the Black McCoy, what was your first anime that you initially realized that women were being oversexualized?
SPEAKER_06Uh I've been thinking about this for a minute because I'm like, ooh, I have like you have to dig through like the recesses of my anime memories. And uh I think the the one that stood out to me as like the earliest, um, where I was like, this seems, this seems like a this seems unnecessarily uh uh uh present. And that was Kanichi's uh the Mightiest Disciple. That was one of the I remember because like I remember watching it and being like, huh, that that whole like Ash Titty Shots and that wasn't, I don't see how that was relevant or necessary to the show. And it's like as I think about all the other things that I watched, I got even like early anime stuff, Pokemon, um, Digimon, uh Yu-Gi-Oh! you know, all the other like intro kind of stuff uh from my youth, ooh, ouch, that hurt to say. Um uh it wasn't until it like that is legitimately the the anime that first stands out to me as like this is there's something like unnecessarily sexual going on here. Like it and for some uh someone who has interestingly enough, like traversed a lot of literature, like anime and cartoons up until that point in terms of just kind of understanding like stories and understanding, you know, et cetera, like all those different facets of it. It was it was it wasn't jarring, but it was like it was one of my early squint side-eye moments, like why is this happening? Why is this here? Why is this necessary? I'm not uncomfortable, but this seems uncomfortable, like on a number of different, like it like set off like a bunch of different like alarms in my head. And I wasn't at that time, I wasn't really like uh as well versed in the things that I am now to like know what exactly those those those red flags were. I was like, I just knew that something wasn't sitting right with me about it. And uh that feeling or that perception or that understanding uh continued to persist in a number of different ways. So yeah, Kenichi, Modest Disciple, that was the first one. Yep, that was that one and it was so it felt so forced because that's that it was nothing like surrounding what the show was about, like even as romantic interest, like it was ex-she the the she was like, I forget her name, but I her face is in my mind. But like she didn't even seem to like be necessary in that regard. It was like I remember in undergrad, um uh a a friend of mine and I, one of the things that we hated about a lot of different stories was like forced romantic plots, and um like they just kind of like moved these characters together just because it was convenient in some way, shape, or form, or because it was like, oh, this seems like this should happen. Uh and it's funny because I feel the same way about Storm of Chichala for a number of different reasons, but um when it kind of like it and it it it it felt like that, like it felt like it was just thrusted pun intended into the into the show or into the plot or into like the character interactions without any relevant context as to why it would be. Yeah, yeah. Miyu. Miyu was her name?
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_06Funny, you said Miyu. I thought Miyu, and I was like, oh, don't do that. I'm sure some I'm sure someone's smut fanfic art is out there somewhere. Oh no. Don't Google it.
SPEAKER_05Um, Miss Skittles, what was your uh first anime uh where you realized that uh women were being oversexualized?
SPEAKER_02So it was um it was Devil Hunter Yoko. They they do they do this whole naked thing, and and and actually they did it in Sailor Moon too, but of course American version, we didn't because that's where I saw it at first. I saw it dubbed, I saw it as a child on American TV. So of course, the transformation, you know, that I saw, they weren't naked. But when I started watching anime, like getting blockbustered, you know, VHS tapes, that shit was from Japan. So Devil Hunter Yoko um was the first time I seen um an unnet I thought it was completely unformation of a woman like naked, like for it ultimately it was just fan service to me, and I just didn't understand. Like, I was like, why did she have to be completely naked for her to transform? And why did we have to see it? Like it was just it was just wild to me. Um it was subtle, like and and like um the black mccoy said, and in the in the whole grand scheme of things, it was completely unnecessary. Like the just she like her her character, her strength, her her counterparts, like her job was she was like a demon hunter. Like, so what like for what purpose did we need to see her transform completely naked? And when I say the like it started from the bottom and went up the top, like it was just in every crevice for no reason, like um, so I'm I'm just like what uh why why is that necessary? And then I think I think it really like hit me when I when I started watching uh Rama one and a half or half one. I was just about to say Rama. But Rama I so I understand the the whole premise of the you know the the changing genders with the the temperature of the water, but there were there of course throughout this whole anime in the manga there's like unnecessary moments that you know it's like okay, like it's funny, like when I think about it as an adult, but as a child, it's just like why is this happening? Why is there titty, you know, like why why is this unnecessary shots happening? Yes, I know that Rana is changes from male to female, but why why do we have to see all the extra unnecessary extra sexual shit that's going on in the main? Um, which I mean at the time seemingly was for children, but not at all. Not at all. Because I mean it's it's like a mixture of like romance and martial arts, so you're like, okay, like this is you know, whatever. Um, you know, avatar, last airbender, you know, shit. But no, not at all. Um, so it would there was a lot of unnecessary moments of just I I would I want to say nudity, but because the jokes and the the side commentary and the the context of in which things were being shown was not necessarily nude and sexual. So I would say Devil Hunter Yoko was more nude. Um, but if you look at the angles in which they like go up her body as she's transforming it a little more sexual. So you're like, okay, why? I didn't need to see like the middle of the clitoris in a like.
SPEAKER_06The middle of the clitoris. I did not need to see a look at this lips in my transformation day.
SPEAKER_02Like, why we had to start there, though. I agree with you.
SPEAKER_01It's funny that uh that Miss Skittle said that because that was exactly how I felt watching ninja school. Like you see this ninja, female ninja, who is captured. Why do we have to see a human of her outfit getting snatched off and titties showing with her nipples in the road? Like, how does that add to content? Like, what does that do? That doesn't show anything about her power. That was just that was overt fan service. And just like the way how he's like licking her neck, and you just see the beads of like saliva dripping. Like it was don't get me wrong, I was quite entertained as a child. I was like, wow, let's re let's rewatch that part. But anyway, it was just like I'm not this is not for children. You know what I'm saying? Like this is to me, it's it's hentai. I don't care what anybody wants to call it, but it is hentai to me because hentai is that is sex. Like, I don't you know, you can't do that on so for me, I feel like hentai is anything that you cannot post on TV for the masses to watch. Like if you have to have a certain TVMA or something, it's you know, when it comes to like sexual content in an anime, it's hentai to me. So that could not fly on on uh cartoon out. No.
SPEAKER_06It's funny that you say that. I felt like we would get to this point in the conversation. So I actually like had some notes prepared about some distinctions that uh we should be very aware of as we continue to talk about this. So when it comes to fan service particle in particular, like it's a general like definition or understanding, it's just like material and like works of fiction or like a fictional series that intentionally adds like some sort of element to please the audience in some way. Now, these things can be of a sexual nature or include nudity, but they are not inherently in and of themselves sexual. So like fan service itself is not inherently like a sexual thing, but there is like a continuity in terms of like history of how it happened, where it's just kind of become that standard in a way. Because like for all intents and purposes, like all even in like Marvel movies when they're Easter eggs and stuff like that, those kinds of things are like fan service. Or like if has it has everyone seen Nope?
SPEAKER_02Nope, not yet.
SPEAKER_06Okay, oh, so like in other cartoons and stuff, when you do when you see like the Akira like bike slide and stuff like that, like that's that's a form of like fan service because it's a nod to fans and fandoms of particular content. Like one of the things about Steven Universe is that they made a lot of anime references, and that's a form of fan service, right? Um, so something that was that about fan service is that it started to become like more sexual and like more risque in like the 70s, and a lot of that started, or a lot of that is said to have, or like reported to have been started with this shonen property called cutie honey. And much like a number of other things, um, it started to like really be intensified in the 80s, where you get like full frontal nudity, more shower scenes, and around like the time of the 80s is when fan service being understood as like, or being understood as like this like really sexual, like overtly sexual thing. That's when it became like, that's when that became like the standard for what fan service is. Now, when it comes specifically to like anime, there's this like a slang term called H. Um, spelled E C C H I. And so that's supposed to be, that's supposed to mean like playfully sexual kind of interactions, right? And so the term specifically ended up being adopted by like Western fans, because you know the West has a tendency to do things in the way that the West always does, because global colonization is something that's ingrained in us for some reason. Um Western fans of like anime and stuff like that started to take up this term Hy to describe things, um, you know, specifically of Japanese media that had like these really strong sexual overtones. And so, but in Japanese culture, it's often used to describe like a person's conduct or their behavior specifically. However, over here in the West, it also has become like just used as referred to basically what is softcore porn or like soft corn, soft soft corn. Wow. Softcore, like playfully sexual things. And this is going to be like something that's specifically distinct from hentai sounding, because which is what made me like look at this in the first place. Because with hentai, it's supposed to like be this connotation towards like some specific like fetishism or like perversion. And so Echy, Echy technically is a type of fan service, but it is not the same thing as fan service. And even in like more like culturally contextual frame frameworks, it is distinct from hentai in how it's actualized. Now, HE being used by English speakers, like although it's like typically used to refer to like soft core pornographic content that's like super suggestive or whatever, um, it's used as like a milder expression of hentai when again, it's not the same thing, right? Um, but in Japan, it's also kind of used as like a catch-all term for all things sexual. Doesn't really matter like how mild it is, how slight it is, or how strong it is. So like anything from like, you know, an accidental like peek at someone's panties to full-on like sexual assault could be included in H, right? Um, but when you think about, but when English speakers think about hentai, it's very much associated with like hardcore porn, like shit you would not see put on TV, right? Um, but in Japan, hentai is more, it's more close to like calling somebody a creep or calling somebody like a pervert. So it doesn't necessarily have to be like sexual in nature, right? So like whenever, like I don't know if like whenever you've like watched a particular anime or something, um, and someone's doing something weird and like public and they like call them, they like call them a pervert or like they use the word hentai in some way, that's similar to what that is. It's like, is this some sort of like perversion or some type of fetish that you're like putting on display or whatever, right? And so yeah, uh it's it's a very, it's it's very interesting in terms of like the the cultural lines but as well as the appropriative lines, I'll call them, because in the West we see these things um as a lot of the same. But as we get as we talk more about this, I think it was I thought it was important for us to say understand that hentai, Hy and fan service are completely different. Now, fan service again is one of those things that can very easily has actually has kind of become Hy or just become like sexual content for whatever, because you know, the 80s is what the 80s was. It was the 80s. Um and it's I I I guess as we talk, continue talking about it, I didn't want us to like slip into that conflation of terminology. When it was really important for us and this conversation to be distinct about what we meant.
SPEAKER_01No, I love that. I love that. You know, I did not know that fan, because I guess you know how we all use slang. And but the actual root, the denotation of a word means something completely different. I had no idea that the connotation of fan service was compl was very different from the denotation of it. Like I because I think from when people use fan service in conversation, they always uh correlate it with like the sexual or sensual side or perverted side of something. Um and and conversation. So that's actually very good to know, um, for sure.
SPEAKER_06But even that conflation itself, like it has uh it had there's a reason for it, and it's partly because you know that sexual connotation, that nude just become became the standard of what fan service a lot of I'll say a lot of mainstream fan service is, regardless of like the larger kind of you know umbrella of things that are included under fan service.
SPEAKER_05I think that I think making sure that we vo vocalize that, I think is very important for the listeners to be able to know that there is that differentiation. So thank you for that research because you know, you think about a lot of the different um ways that people I don't use the word demonized, that's a little aggressive. But when uh a lot of people try to, you know, say people, oh my gosh, this is so much fan service, because you know, they see, you know, petite lollicons or they see over-emphasized chest sizes and dimensions that make no sense as if they don't have never seen a Disney movie. Um, it's just, you know, individuals have to have an understanding of exactly what the words that they're using mean um without just throwing it out there because they heard somebody else say it. So that the like you said, uh Sinee, uh, that's definitely a learning point, even for myself. I did not um I understood what fan service was overall, but I didn't know how much over time the slang had taken over it and uh changed its um, changed the way that people looked at it and why people use it. So thank you.
SPEAKER_06Um what can I say it's a gift?
SPEAKER_05Yes, yes, um also uh so for uh for my anime uh that I first kind of realized, or I don't even say realized because like I said before when I was introing, like there's a lot of different places where um anime has has taken the concept of utilizing the woman's body and form uh for uh different types of reasons. But you know, there's one thing about form, but then there's another thing about the usage of the woman. And so it was less for me in my first anime about, or first animes about, you know, sexualizing the body, but more like sexualizing the woman herself. And my first anime was Tenchi Muyo, how you know there's this gentleman who was a high school student at the beginning of it.
SPEAKER_02Right. I'm saying Lloyd, yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_05Um, because the thing is, even even with the women in the anime, depending on which version you watched or what season or series you watched, it's not like they it's not like they were everybody was completely naked all the time. But the the the issue, if you really want to talk about oversexualization, is the fact that it was a almost slice of life sci-fi harem where every single woman specifically wanted his seed, and none of them were shy about making sure they emphasized the fact that that's what they wanted. Um, as if you know, all of them deciding to live on earth in this house with him was okay.
SPEAKER_01I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_04That was you're fine.
SPEAKER_02No, he was definitely basic as fuck.
SPEAKER_06Like, if it was like not basic as fuck, that's actually one of the key components of like most harem things. Like, I know that's why I said the person that's in the central harem is not particularly remarkable, there's nothing seriously special about them, they're just kind of there, and then there's everyone else around.
SPEAKER_02It's ridiculously unrealistic. If if Shoshomro was a tenchi, then okay, okay.
SPEAKER_05If it was Gojo, absolutely well, as you know, uh in anime, men like that don't need harems, even though women are always falling all over them. Um, so I I mean I still don't know why they chose Tenji, um, Muyo, uh Universe, all of them, uh, to be this cornerstone. Uh because for me, I was I was waiting for him during the anime, of course, watching it, I was waiting for him to turn into the man that they're all fawning over. And I was like, it's gonna happen. He he's gonna learn some sword skill, he he's gonna turn into a deity, something. And I was like, nope, Ryoko's, she's she's she's still doing it. She's she's the only one. What's you ain't gonna, she's gonna fight for you? You gonna oh, you ain't gonna. Damn. Okay. Well, I guess that's uh that's how this anime works. So yeah, no, no, that was my first one. And then the first one in terms of the woman's form was, you know, definitely Sailor Moon. Um, because you know, as Miss Skittles was saying, you know, just she's naked. I don't I don't care what she's trying to say. Um, but she's naked. Uh oh, actually, Sailor Moon and Ghost in the Shell. Uh, because yeah.
SPEAKER_02I was gonna say Ghost in the Shell because they got they had the major of like, first of all, right.
SPEAKER_05Robotic or not?
SPEAKER_02Robotic or not, and then then why why she walking? Like, who fighting in a Leotard, dog?
SPEAKER_05Sure.
SPEAKER_02Nobody's Tammy in the Leotard, like she gonna have a wedgie every every single time, dog. Realistically, absolutely not.
SPEAKER_01That 80 spandex, too. That 80s.
SPEAKER_06An American Horror Story Season One spandex. But no, I think some is also regardless of like the female character, something that I think is kind of pervasive, pervasive? Uh I'll say insistent. Um, something that's a bit more insistent that I noticed is that regardless like of how powerful the character is, like there is like a lot of a lot of, if not all female characters go through this phase of like, regardless of how powerful, it doesn't matter how powerful they are, if they're not in some way like sexual, cannot be sexualized, then they are not of like complete value to the viewer. And it's funny, like I was uh watching um was it a video? I was watching a video essay. Um, and it was one of the things that, you know, they're talking about in terms of like the boys and some of like something that happened with Starlight, is that you know, she was she came in with this more kind of modest, you know, way she liked to dress in terms of her like superhair outfit. But then, you know, the company bought, they gave her like this kind of like makeover, it's like powerful woman, blah, blah, blah. But then she's in this, like, you know, but it's basically like a one-piece swimsuit with her ass almost out and her legs and shit almost out. Like, she became her outfit became much more risque, and it's like this uh appropriation of the eye, it's the appropriation of the sexualized, the the sexualized or the sexed person as being the one that needs to be forced to the forefront in order to assert some degree of power, which is not correct, but it's also not incorrect, but it's also something very uh sensitive to have to juggle because if to not get true psychoanalytic, it's much more nuanced than just like, oh, sex is power. And it's like, no, it's definitely a thing, but it it needs to be handled appropriately. And there's a lot of uh there's a lot of like voyeurism and like the external gaze associated with that that needs to be unpacked a lot more before we even get to that point in terms of like understanding those things. But like I say all that to say that, yeah, no, no, no. So the like power and sexuality are often kind of like coupled in a number of different ways, and like even with even with Tinchi, it's like he's you know seen to be like desirable and powerful as being desired in a sexual way, and I think that kind of underpins a lot of like thematic harem anime and like the genre itself, that in some way there is a powerfulness to this person, regardless of how unremarkable they may actually be present. And that's supposed to be the thing that like draws them, draws like this these droves of women in in some way. But at the same time, right, the the women themselves are in a lot of different instances, even in um what's that what's the one Domo loves so much? Oh, a comedy got killed. Um, fuck Ezdef. Yes, even Ezek. Ezdeff could have easily killed that little nigga. Like Ezek could have murked him in less than a second, and yet like this extremely powerful like female figure who also had like a very sexualized appearance, is like relegated to uh being like you know, sexually or you know, kind of sexually succumbed to this, you know, someone who is weaker than them. And I think that's something really interesting to add to the conversation of how women end up being over sexualized, regardless of how powerful they are, right? Because you can be, you could literally be a goddess, but if some random nigga comes up and starts, if some random Isekai nigga starts coming up, touching your cheese and like rubbing your thighs, then you're like, oh my god. But you could literally shift the universe. But if something like that happens, then it's almost as like it's it's it's supposed to be like a joke, and I get it. Like there's supposed to be some level of humor to it, but at the same time, there are a lot of other implications there.
SPEAKER_01Oh, a comedy that kill annoy the fuck out of me. Um just basic nigga again. I'm just like, what is what am I watching? What am I watching? I'm seeing all these beautiful women who have talent, and this nigga ain't got no talent at all. He's just there breathing. I was surprised how I'm surprised he got into night raid in the first place. How how do it work? As death of all people, you have a a dom, you have a a profound experience Dom. Gonna be accept in this punk ass nigga? I just could I could not. I just couldn't for the life of me understand. Like I didn't I didn't understand it. And I I think that's why I have a a big issue with harem um animes. I don't like it. From it, it's just kind of like the damsel in distress, and it's strange that it's an entire um genre. Yes, it's very unnerving to me. I don't like it at all. Um, I I would say another one definitely is kill a kill, but kill a kill was like a parody.
SPEAKER_06Um purpose, and they were children, and which is also the part that was yeah, fucking school.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Man, yeah, yeah, yeah. But but but that's not but that's not uncommon in in in anime uh when it comes to them. Yeah, when it comes to it.
SPEAKER_05Actually, actually, it's it's common in anime. That's that's the problem, yeah. That's that's the part where everybody forgets. It's common. Most of these characters, whether they're in a harem, whether they're over sexualized, are normally within the ages of nine to sixteen. Normally.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. It's not real people. It's that schoolgirl fantasy. Like it I mean, you see it in a lot of the animes where you know, I mean, half of everybody's in fucking school anyway. Yeah. Um then there's just this extra, there's this extra, you know, sexual um thing that comes along with the the female characters because you know, you don't see the you don't see the male care characters what, you know, running around with the t-shirts open and dah da. But you know, the girl in school, you know, falls over and drops her pencil or something, and all of a sudden, you know, somebody's nose is bleeding. So like it's it's it's kind of ridiculous at times. Um, and like I said, uh well, like the black McCoys and I I get it, like sometimes it's supposed to be funny, but sometimes it's just so ridiculous, like um Fire Force. Um Jesus. And the the cat joke, I forget her name off the top of my head, right?
SPEAKER_06It starts with a T.
SPEAKER_02So that they did her so dirty and ridiculous in that whole entire series. Like, I and I fuck with Tamaki. What what'd you say? Tamaki.
SPEAKER_05Tamaki. I thought it was Tamaki. Is it Tamaki or Tamaki?
SPEAKER_02Tamaki.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_02So this this poor girl, first of all, the the she's still like trying to find herself, trying to come into her powers, and every fucking second, uh, they they had her like damsel in distress at some point, or the or just just being abused, like physically and emotionally, and and and and a lot of times it wasn't even sexual, it was just abuse. Yeah, getting her ass beat, but but and still we we gotta see her titty pop out of the shirt, or and still we gotta see you know her clothes pop off completely um while she's being abused. And and I'm like, that's not sexy, dog. Like, you know, and that goes back to what Shine was saying about like like sexualizing rape or you know, fantasizing rape fantasies, like that that shit is not cool to me. Um, and that was probably one of the things that I mean, like I said, I still fuck with Fire Force, but that was one of the things that really turned me off about that.
SPEAKER_06Hopefully they're moving away from it in Firefox in particular. She had her little, you know, her training sessions. So hopefully we didn't get to deal with that that much anymore.
SPEAKER_02Because that shit was blowing me. Like, I'm like, why they keep doing it? Like, some at some so it was just so hard to watch them do that to her.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, every I think every single moment she came on screen, I was apprehensive uh about continuing to watch that scene because I'm like, I feel like they're about to do it again. Right. And I it for me, it's almost like other than a couple of the villains, she they were trying to compartmentalize all of the over sexualization onto her, so everybody else is more serious.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_05And and for me, the sexiest person on it in Fire Force is Hibana Hime. The strength, the overwhelming will, like it gave me Ezeth, but like fire.
SPEAKER_06Like it was even to a degree, like she became subject to a similar trope that Es Death became.
SPEAKER_05True, which uh again annoyed the hell out of me. Because like she was this whole powerful scientist, leader of the fifth uh uh uh uh um uh fire station, like like all this stuff, and then all of a sudden, because the main character didn't bow to her will, now she like is doing everything for him. I'm like, wait, wait, whoa, wait, huh? What happened to the niggas on the ground? What happened? Right, right, what happened?
SPEAKER_06And she was a few brownies in there.
SPEAKER_02I'm just like right, she was literally stepping on niggas' backs to watch.
SPEAKER_06Literally, literally I'm not walking on people to get where I'm going. I don't want to do, I don't want to go.
SPEAKER_05Like he had like he didn't even save the world yet. Like if he saved the world, and like maybe she was like, okay, maybe, but he didn't do anything.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You it's it's funny, uh, Miss Skittles had brought up um no, it was um Suji that brought up uh like a sexy character that wasn't like overly sexualized. I don't know why. I I'm going to um Kage Guri and not because I mean they all wore like you know the the outfits and of course it was short as hell, but it was the psycho chick. I don't know why she was hot to me. She was like the one I would play like Russian roulette.
SPEAKER_05She was oh kakaguri. I was like kate go. Oh, kakaguri. Okay I was like yeah, Kage Guri.
SPEAKER_01Did I not?
SPEAKER_05The black haired one, the one with the iPad. Was that Mimiko?
SPEAKER_01I don't remember her name, but like she so I mean the whole entire show was a little bit of a little bit of a little kill me for not knowing that go ahead, but it wasn't like she had like her titties out or anything like that. She was psycho, but she was like sadistic. It was like bloodless. I think going back like uh from a couple uh episodes, um, you know, that's it.
SPEAKER_05Sorry.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, she was weirdly hot to me, and it wasn't like she did anything, she was very like out of this world, but I think it was her perversion, like yeah, yeah, but I like that, and it because I think it was it was different compared to like um you know what we're used to seeing, we're used to seeing like titty shots, as shots, like used to seeing everything, but she just you just that bloodlust that she had, she was like, but that was hot. Like, I don't know why and I think that's that that's the kind of like so.
SPEAKER_06I think that one of the things I love about anime is the ability to, and animation in general, to be honest, is the ability to amplify certain kind of characteristics. And I think that's one of those moments where like that's that more kind of hentai aspect, that's that fetishism, that's that perversion. Like that is you're a real, like you're really creepy about something. And uh, I know Hisoka's not like a woman, but that's I think that's the similar thing that kind of happens with him that people get easily misappropriate, easily misappropriate. Um, but more specific to Kakiguru, I know what you're talking about because I haven't finished the show, but I've watched enough episodes of it to know the kind of behavior that you're talking about. And it's something that I think that's a that's like an iteration of like this is being used in a way that makes sense. Like it's not that it's an inherently sexual thing, it's that the relationship that this character has to this kind of behavior and the way this behavior overall affects like who they are. It is like, it is like this intense kind of uh intense kind of fetishism of how they feel. And if you want to show how intense that feeling is or how into this thing that they're doing they are, it looks sexual, but in actuality, it's more it's more of a it's a much more uh intense power play in terms of oh, like, oh, you're weaker than me. Oh, you think you're gonna win, oh you're not smart enough, oh you're not strong enough, I'm going to toy with you. Because I I I, for all intents and purposes, get off on having the power in this situation, not in a sexual way, but in more so of like this kind of like uh it was um, it was she was she was the epitome of a satal masochist.
SPEAKER_01And when you yeah, when you get into kink, that's when you know that sex has nothing to do with it. And I think that's probably why I gravitated to her character because she was, and I'm not I'm not I'm not a satomasochist, but she was the epitome of satal masochism. She gets off on on and she doesn't have to be touched, she doesn't have to be, you know, penetrated at all. It was just that emotion, that power. And you just saw that like that lust of you know that that kind of power drive for her. She loved it. And that was what was perversion. That was that was that perverse nature of hers. And you didn't have to show any like you know, slide of the panties or anything like that to get the emotion across. And I I think I appreciate that a lot more in Hentai because I think when you everybody knows what an undershot is or underboot is, like we've seen it plenty, thousands of times. We've seen the silhouette of the titties and asked that. We already see it, but you don't really see the the explanation of that type of emotion very often. And I think that's why so many people gravitated to Kanye the way that they did, because you usually don't see characters like that and kind of have that feel for it either.
SPEAKER_05So two things on that, real quick. One, I have to say it because I know Dr. Quinzel would want me to say it. Uh so Kakagori, if you have I have been keeping up, you know that Kakegori Twin, uh, which I believe is the spinoff or the second season, just started this past week. So if you ain't on it, go ahead and get on it. Um, but then two, um, while I was preparing for this episode, uh, one of the I saw, you know, I was reading up on a couple of articles about oversexualization of women in anime. And one of the articles that I found specifically pointed out Category, saying that although it does not show skin, they feel, and this is just that person, I don't agree with it, but I want to bring it up as a question, they feel that the that presence that, you know, Yumiko and even Mary brings, that almost sexual insanity without it being sexual, well, it is in a way, but anyway, um, is just as bad as the nudity or the tentacles or the boobs and the exposure and everything else. So I wanted to ask the, you know, I don't know if everybody has seen all of it. I know uh McCoy and Sayane said they hadn't seen all of it yet. But for those of you who have even seen a scene of it, do you agree? Do you feel like that?
SPEAKER_02I can agree to a certain extent. I feel like when when you when you over-sexualize without having to without without it being so blatant, like in your face, as titties, you know, pussy, there it is. I feel like it's less um I don't know, like jolt, like it's less jolting and you and you and it and it impacts you less. Like, yes, um, what's what's the main character's name again?
SPEAKER_04Umiko.
SPEAKER_02Like, first of all, I I will say what drew me into even watching the anime was Yumiko. Um just the the her the it was it was definitely sexualized because I was like, yo, is she getting turned on by playing cards? Like, what the fuck? Like, like that, like that was that was the reason that I started to watch it. Um, but as I watched it, it wasn't, it just wasn't like I didn't get tired of how they portrayed it. Like it wasn't like, oh my god, like here she goes again, getting horny. Or like, you know, it kind of reminded me of like Food Wars. Every time they ate, they was fucking busting the nut, but but it wasn't like it wasn't like it wasn't like I was disgusted by it. Like it was just like, oh okay, yeah, that's some good ass food. Like, I don't know. I feel like there's a major difference between like using the body for sexualization and then fetishes or you know, that kind of type that type of deal.
SPEAKER_06So I'm super glad you brought up who works because I've been thinking about it for like the past 10 minutes. Um uh so to respond to the question, uh no, I don't. I think that uh I vehemently disagree. And actually, no, I just think that that's wrong. And I think it's wrong because it's something that Kaze and I frequently talk about is that when it comes to a lot of the media that we consume, I've noticed a failure in comprehension when it comes to a lot of a lot of viewership, honestly. Um and there is there's a lot more to reading than just watching what's going on and comprehending like the plot. There are like there's various aspects of subtext and different nuances and like themes and motifs to actually be aware of and pay attention to. And I think the the part of the reason that there is this dissonance between with things like kakiguri and that article being written and how people feel and not what they actually understand um or what is to be understood, is that there is um there's a misunderstanding about how those kind of things actualize themselves. Like um, I was watching uh so recent anime watching Black Summoner, like there's a character there, he's he got into a fight with a stronger opponent, and um he was like really excited, right? He's like started getting way too excited. And I and I it came to me in that moment as I was thinking about it, um, as um Miss Skills was talking about it, and it's more so that it's closer to what you would consider an adrenaline junkie. Like it's not that they're like they're getting horny in that moment or that's a sexualized moment, it's that they're experiencing a bodily sensation that is amplifying how they're going through that moment. And because it's animated, right, you know, and it's not like a real person, they're going to hyper, hyper-realize that representation of it. So you get the full, like, the full like breadth of what it is that is happening in that moment. So it's I would say more so in kakiguru is let it's not so much that it's sexualized, but it's more so that the the adrenaline, the sensation of doing what they're doing is so intense and so pleasurable to them, right? That they end it ends up looking sexual, but it's not sexual in any way, shape, or form. And so I think like I said, I think an adrenaline yogi is the best kind of parallel for that.
SPEAKER_02And I agree with that.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Um, and when it could so back to kind of food wars, um, I think wait, can I ask the question real quick? Go for it.
SPEAKER_05You you said that you don't feel like it's being oversexualized because it's an anime, but do you think the the situation is an I agree that it's an adrenaline junkie or is it it's an adrenaline adrenaline high indoor fans, etc. Do you feel like because it's an anime and because they have an audience, how they're depicting it is being sexualized? I the the drawing I'm also mean, the aesthetic.
SPEAKER_06I don't think the aesthetic itself is I think the aesthetic itself is being sexualized by the viewer, partly because by the viewer, partly because of the limited understanding of uh psycho-emotional relationships to various phenomena. That's what I think. Um I think it is, I think in a lot of different instances, um, it's a it's more so a failure on the part of the viewer rather than that of the writer or the artist um in consuming the thing that is, you know, being sexualized rather than actually understanding the context of a thing. Um I'm a very strong, I'm a very strong advocate for the idea that when you are viewing something or when you're reading something, there's it's important to understand what's what kind of for to be brief, what story is being told or what's what's trying to be portrayed here, or and how effective or how necessary is it in actually portraying those things. Um and I think that there is media that does fail at doing things like that. Um they are they they take a wrong turn in some way, shape, or form, or maybe there maybe in some instances there's some cultural differences that just cannot bridge that gap. Um, but in a lot of ways, and specifically when it comes to characters like Isoka or like the character characters in Kakigurui, um it's uh definitely a miss, it's definitely a failure or a wrong interpretation or a wrong perception or uh of what's actually happening in the medium itself. Um like I said, literacy is not America's strongest area in a number of different ways. And so that translates in a number of different ways when it comes to anime. I agree completely. Thank you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um but you were saying about food wars?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, but when it comes, I was gonna say food wars and One Piece, right?
SPEAKER_05Um Whoa.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I'm not done. Um when it comes to food wars and One Piece, I think those are those are, for all intents and purposes, for lack of a better word, uh, healthier ways of like viewing certain things, right? Because there is a context or there's a necessary ass, there's not necessarily a context to those things happening, right? Sanji's a perfect, perfect, uh, perfect joke in terms of like anime, like of Hy stuff. Like he's the only character there who's like going through something sexual like all the time. And even then, like it's a it's a part of his character, and it's not simply just because he's just you know this super sexual person, but he's the equivalent of like Brock, and like he's the equivalent of Brock, right? But and you know, but he can actually fight from Pokemon, everything brought yeah, Brock from Pokemon, and um, but he can actually fight.
SPEAKER_05Oh and he almost you lose one battle to a Pikachu and all of a sudden people think you can't fight.
SPEAKER_02No, I mean I mean Brock was uh I mean Brock had Pokemon, not hands.
SPEAKER_06Um but even in the context of Sanji, like it's consistent, it's been a consistent joke uh in terms of his character, but it's also been uh it's also been a plot device in terms of his character as well. Like, uh, spoiler if you haven't even seen Fishman, the Fishman Island art, like he was down and out because like the his like kind of sexualized view of the mermaids around him, he had his nose bleeding was so intense, the nigga needed the transfusion. Like he almost died, and it was a joke, but it was also a serious like plot point because he was down for a minute and the crew kind of you know functions how they function. Um, but when it comes to shows like food wars, I think I the fan service didn't bother me because I under for from my reading of the show, it was simply an amplification of something that people already experienced, which is you know, the uh a really hyper-realized version of what a food gas is. A certain kind of like reaction when they eat certain food or when they've had certain food that's like really good. And there is, sure, there are more like subtle ways to like do that and that will get the point across. But Food Wars to me was a show that hybridized a certain kind of slice of life aspect with a much more shown-in kind of intensity, and that's where that shown-in intensity really took place. And it's not even that the characters themselves were being sexualized because of how they were dressed all the time, or even um, you know, their relationships to the other characters around them, it was strictly to the food, and the food itself was the only thing sexual about anything that was happening around them, and I think that was like the one of the core aspects there. It's like, and like and there's another show, um shit, I forgot the name of it, but it was the one where they were like basically having like water battles, but they could only use their like tits and ass. I think it was called Cape. Oh yeah, I watched the whole thing. It was actually like it was actually a really good show. Really good. But the way they utilized it there was in a parody sort of way, but it wasn't hyper-sexualized to the point of like, oh, this is soft core porn. But it but it but they inserted like some really like intense fan service in terms of other anime. Like there was one uh there was one girl, she had this ability called like the gate of Bootilan, and it was a it was um a it was a parody of um Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon in in the Phase Zero franchise, which was fantasti in the fake franchise, which was fantastic. I thought it was hilarious. They even did an attack on Titan parody version. It was it was hilarious and it was really good, but it wasn't focused on the it wasn't focused on the fact that there was TNA like in the entire show the entire time. And it didn't like try to like make everyone super half naked or like make the girls, you know, these sexual objects to one another. Like it it legitimately used this kind of it kind of it used uh quote-unquote fan service or H E more um specifically in a way that was relevant to the story that they were telling. It was relevant to like the sport that they were playing. The sport that they were playing, the the food was being made, the character themselves. Like there is a way to use these kinds of themes without beating people over the head with them or even just thrusting them into the pot.
SPEAKER_02It was called uh Ooh, I don't know how to pronounce these things.
SPEAKER_06I think it's like Kaijo.
SPEAKER_02Kaiijo?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I think it's something like that.
SPEAKER_02It's K-E-I-J.
SPEAKER_06Kajo. Yes, Kajo. Yeah, like that there are shows that that do it that do it well, right? And it's not like a bother, and it's not like there's this again. But yeah.
SPEAKER_05So we have talked about our initial experiences with over sexualization. We've talked about different ways that it can be done right and anime which we've seen it done successfully for ourselves. Now, right now, we're of course we're in the middle of a summer season. Uh, a lot of anime are just starting. I think a lot of them are on episode like five, four, five, and six. Um actually, some just started, you know, this past week, as I said, with category twin. So as it pertains to anime right now, what would you, each of you individually, say is the most jarring, unexpected, unnecessary um aspect of over sexualization that you're seeing in anime today. Because of course, back then we talked about the transformations, we talked about the uh uh 70s and 80s leotards, we talked about, you know, up boob and sideass and all this other stuff. You know, somebody talked about clitoris, I don't know about all that. But as it pertains to today's anime, what and of course uh uh Sionic cosplay talked about the fact that there are there's a whole uh uh there's new genres, you know, the hentai genre, uh, there's a um uh harem genre, uh just etchy genre, but as it pertains to standard anime that may or may not fall into those categories, what is the most jarring, unexpected, in your opinion, unnecessary piece of oversexualization that you see in anime today? And I guess Miss Skittles is chomping at the bit, so I'm gonna let her go first.
SPEAKER_02Um the sexualization of rape. We have seen it in things like was it got was it goblin?
SPEAKER_04Goblin Slayer. I still can't get over that one.
SPEAKER_02Like I just like the fact that it just pops up so, you know, like casually in in some instances, is is is like you said, it's jarring. It's like, wait, what the few?
SPEAKER_05Where why did we get here?
SPEAKER_02Right. How did we get here? I mean, shit, and Goblin Slayer, it was like the first fucking episode. And I'm and you're just like, uh why would I continue to watch this? I mean, I know people who did watch the whole shit, but it's just like why and they're like, oh, that was the only thing, but why I why would I continue to watch it? After seeing that in the first episode, and it wasn't like it wasn't like uh, you know, like a little, oh but no, it was very, it was very it was graphic. Yeah, it was very graphic and obvious, like traumatizing to something. And I just um I don't know. I just feel like it like why is that happening like today, like and now, like why is it a thing at all?
SPEAKER_06Because people will still watch it and consume it. Like, I felt the same way. I actually do feel the same way about redo a viewer, like I saw that coming, as you should have. Um I remember seeing a lot, like it was like the first like two episodes, like the first two episodes were basically just rape and rape, rape fantasies. Like, and it was like, okay, we're I I the I got I remember we got past the first episode but stopped in like the middle of the second episode. It was just like it even as like it it even plot-wise, it made no sense. And even this is also taking into consideration that like even when writing like various kinds of stories, there is always like okay, there are terrible people in the world, right? Terrible shit happens sometimes, which is you know fine, but there's also like uh there's also a way to write those kinds of things that isn't just like unpace unnecessarily, just like, oh, like here's a bunch of rape. And then like the plot itself didn't make sense because it went from like this character who was raped and abused and then completely resets things and then gets raped and abused again, just so he can rape and abuse someone else. And it was like, why would uh why would one continue to watch this if this is what's happening for like two episodes straight? Like this is the majority of the plot so far. It's just a bunch of rape and a bunch of rape and revenge rape, which like isn't appealing and wasn't appealing to me, and it wasn't and my Kazi and I both just stopped watching. It's like, well, you know, this doesn't have uh much to offer us in terms of content, and you know, um, yeah, it I don't see how that's not traumatizing uh in some way, shape, or form. And it it like and there was another anime that I was watching. No, I remember when watching um how about say berserk? Oh I've never actually watched Berserk, but I heard about what happened in Berserk.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Berserk was hardcore. Oh, that's that I think that's uh we'll we'll get back to that.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I was also um no, I was watching um the World's Greatest Assassins reincarnated as an aristocrat. And something Oh, yes, yeah, and they had like a similar kind of situation happen there, but it was like it was contextual to the world that they built. And it wasn't like uh oh, it when it was more so like this is a thing that's happening. It's suggested that it's happening, it's uncomfortable enough to you know that it's happening. They gave a nice little warning, like, hey, this you know episode contains blah blah blah blah blah blah. So, you know, be you know, be cautious, be aware, et cetera, et cetera. Um, and I think that for all intents and purposes, that's a more quote unquote tasteful way to do something of that nature, right? Right. And I remember specifically like being uncomfortable with it because like that kind of thing is just, you know, I I know that like bad shit happens, um, especially in this kind of like this kind of more maybe medieval, I don't know what period. Um the world that they built, but at the same time, it was it was not written or portrayed in a way that was like Goblin Slayer-esque or like redo redo healer-esque in those in those kinds of ways. And it's interesting because I think something that I heard or read was that um the same creator uh Redo Healer also did that show, and it's just like, why did we take that direction before? But okay. Um, but yeah, I I think there are like tasteful ways to portray those things that is that shows that, yeah, though those kind of like bad things happen, but you don't have to like glorify them with imagery. Like because there's a difference between showing sexuality and sex and like sexual brutality and violence. And there's no there, and to me, there is no healthy explanation as to why audiences need to be exposed to sexual violence or like sexual abuse or sexual aggressiveness in that way, especially when it's not contextualized to uh like Sonia said earlier, some some sort of like kink or something like that. Like like throw like revenge fantasies are like unnecessarily just like putting characters in those kinds of situations. Um it really, it really rubs a lot of viewers, myself included, the wrong way, uh enough to kind of pull away from those things rather than continue to invest one's time in them.
SPEAKER_04So um did you have something to say, Sayane? I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, you're the question was um, what is drawing? Is that correct? Um, I think what's drawing is nothing is changing. Yeah, like nothing is changing. I mean, people like excuse me, not people, because these are anime characters, but anime characters have been raped since the 80s, 90s. So this is nothing has changed. Nothing has changed. Um, and is that's that's what's kind of frustrating for me. I'm sorry, go ahead.
SPEAKER_05No, I was just gonna say, I I I agree, nothing has changed. Uh uh as it pertains to the characters and obviously the anime, I think what's changed is the accessibility as well as the where it can be obtained and where it can be um uh received.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yes, I agree. I think it it has with the I would say advancement of uh animation and 3D and the technology, it looks more real now. Uh and that is unsettling to me for sure. Um berserk now I understand if if if this is actually the world because berserk is is meant to be very, very horrible. And with berserk, the reality is worse than the spiritual world. And that's basically so that was the whole tone of berserk that we called up. So with that, I don't necessarily put that as um I think it's I I think it's more so because that was the whole entire manga and anime, and it was just very, very, very dark. It was you know, the main character was dark, the everything about it was incredibly dark. So I appreciated Berserk, it was it was not for the fan parted, but there were very heavy scenes, and nobody was safe, and I think that's really what it was. Guts was being raped, Costco was raped, like there were so many, you had massacres, you had sacrifice, you had so it was it was it was very fucked up. So um Berserk, I would put in a class of its own because nothing ever was like it, to be honest. Um but I the tone of the entire anime and manga was based off of this horrendous world and how people are the ones that make it horrible. So I appreciated Berserk for that. Um, but it was very fucking graphic. Uh Redo Healer, I did not, it didn't make sense to me. I didn't understand it at all. I understand that he was a character that, you know, was fucked over in abuse and whatever, but he literally went on this this rape scree, and it was just very graphic for me to watch. You know, me, I could watch some graphic stuff, but that was a little too much for me. It was very real and triggering from the animation to the facial expressions to the sound effects. Oh it was enough for me. I think I I I can only watch I watch one episode and then I watch a second to see like maybe that's it, but then it just kept getting fucking worse. And I was like, there's no
SPEAKER_06Oh, this is we're oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Oh so we're oh so we're yeah exactly it's getting a lot worse. Oh, okay. There's really nothing more for me to watch of this. And I think I was um I remember I was in psychology in high school and we were talking about my my my teacher at the time talking about porn porn and how um how what type of porn that people watch can be very damaging to them or even the type of content that they watch. Uh so like girl porn where it's like just blood porn, it it can if you somebody who has a thing for it, it can have a lot of psychological triggers or some psychological disorders associated with people who actually watch or get off on that. If you get off on violence, it's usually not a very good thing. It's a telltale sign that that's like you endanger girl type of thing. And for me, people who like enjoy watching redo healer and get off on that, there's something very, very, very wrong. It like there should be a guttural instinct that this is just not humanly right to do.
SPEAKER_06I I really want to jump in on that point because something, eh, sorry, okay. So when it comes to like certain I honestly I would appropriate it to all content and not just sexual content, but um, but in the context specifically of like because we're talking about sexualization. So something that I can I I loved um about Freud is that there is this kind of so there's this modern misappropriated idea that you know Freud thought everything was about sex and it's actually the inverse that you know sex is about everything else, right? So like the way in which you move throughout your daily life is going to actualize itself in your sexual interest, right? So if you're a people pleaser, then that's gonna show up in your sexual life, or if like you're like, or if you're like um, if you're more like sadomasochistic in your own like views of self, then right, that's gonna show up in your sexual self, right? And so there is this one uh this one psychoanalytic thinker, um, and I apologize because it's for the thought, is it was uh Jacques Lacan, they had this thing called the mirror stage. And so the mirror stage is this concept um in like psychoanalytic theory where it's based on the belief that infants recognize themselves in like a mirror or like another kind of symbolic contraption that like induces this um a pre apperception from the age from you know from from very like young ages to about six months. Um, and I think that if you kind of take this this mirror state, this like self-recognition, that's not something that ever goes away. Like, sure, it's it's something that Lacan talked about in terms of like infants, but in terms of like adults quotation marks, because I don't think I think adulthood's a fake thing, but um different conversation for a different day. But like when it comes to adults and how we interact with things, how we engage with things, it is almost that that mirror stage never actually goes away, right? That is why so many of us like regard ourselves in terms of like different um protagonist stories or different character stories or um and things of that nature, right? Because there is this mirror that's happening. Even if there's no, and it's funny because even if there's no like actual mirror there, right, there's always this um inclination towards divining uh this kind of like perception of self or reflection from the media that we're consuming, regardless of whether that's affirmative or negative, right? Regardless of like, oh, this is me. And it's like, regardless if you're like, oh, this is me, or regardless of your like, oh, this is not me, right? You're kind of using whatever you're looking at as this, as this mirror to bounce yourself off of or reflect yourself in one way or another, which I think is really fascinating. And something that I think that is really important to recognize when we are talking about like over sexualization, things like Goblin Slayer, Berserk, Redo Pitter, stuff like that. Like right, um, there is uh there's something very intangible that's difficult to acknowledge on a number of different levels as to the various, uh the various psychological machinations that really influence the the the relationship or the continued investment in certain kinds of in those kinds of content in certain kinds of ways, right? And um I think that there is I think that it's difficult because it requires a deconstruction of self or even in some or even in some in some aspects, like a really um a really critical kind of uh interrogation of what one views as themselves, right? Like this, like, oh, like this is my personality, this is who I am. And it's like, is that really who you are? Is that what you've constructed yourself to be in order to kind of disassociate from what you actually are? And that like I'm trying to not I'm trying to like wrap myself back around in terms of why you even said all that in the first place, but like the relationship to this kind of like sexual content or these kind of like sexual themes, or like are we our responses to them, or our reactions to them and our relationships to them in a number of different ways is really important to understand, right? And that's partly because I think that as viewers, we do have a certain kind of responsibility, right? The the artist or the creator creates these things for us to consume, right? And in our consumption of them, there is something, there is nothing innocent, right? Or there's nothing like blank or blank about consuming certain kinds of content, right? You go into this content and you either stay there or you leave for a very specific set of reasons, regardless of whether you may be, maybe you be, maybe you're maybe you can acknowledge them, maybe you can't, right? But there's a very layered set of reasons associated with why one stays where they are, why one is accepting of certain things versus other things, and so on and so forth. That was a really long explanation just to say that, but I apologize. But I thought it was also very enriching. So you're welcome, and also sorry.
SPEAKER_05Thank you. So I was actually uh I almost forgot the point I was gonna make, which was uh Scionade. I was talking with uh Coke Biceps, and he uh actually said that there is it's not an anime, it's a manga that is actually worse than Berserg in terms of all of the things that took place in it. I think he said it was called red punch or blood punch, one of those two words or statements. Um but yeah, no, he said it was it was right. Uh he said it was a line.
SPEAKER_06She's like, yeah, that's not I doesn't look punch.
SPEAKER_05Um but anywho, um I was gonna say uh for myself in terms of things that are jarring, um very similar actually, uh, with the you know rape scenes and the uh the well, I'll say the need for the the realism. Like it it's not so for example, um Skeleton Knight. If you watch Skeleton Knight, you know it's a great, you know, fun, happy go-lucky, um, but still realism in terms of the world building that they created in that anime. Um but the first episode of Skeleton Knight within the first couple of minutes is a attempted rape. He uh it did not take place, but it wasn't an attempted rape, and then the you know, the knight came in and slaughtered the bandits that were attempting to rape the princess.
SPEAKER_06Um, that's a moment for a satisfying moment.
SPEAKER_05Huh?
SPEAKER_06Oh, that was a very satisfying moment for me.
SPEAKER_05Oh no, it was very like a clean cut through the shoulder blades, completely lopped off. Like it he cleaved them cleanly. Um so you know, but the the the the for me when I started watching it, I I kind of flashed back to Goblin Slayer and I was like, am I not gonna because I was excited to watch it, the the anime, skeleton night. And so when I when it was within the first five minutes of the show, uh the anime, I was kind of like, uh, am I gonna have to skip this one? Is this gonna be a continuing thing? And there were there are very, you know, there are different um situations that take place in the anime. Uh, but this, if I'm not, this is one of the few um that was this is the closest to a rape that takes place. Everything else is kind of uh is kidnappings, murder, things of that nature. Um, not making any of those things light, just more so about the topic that we're talking about. Um and so for me, the the thing that is the most jarring is the expectation. It's the coming across a new anime, and you could read the description, you can watch a trailer, but now that these certain anime and these certain triggering um visions are now forever emblazed, emblazed, sorry, embedded, I'll just say, into my mind. Um, it's the what's coming next, what's about to happen? What is this is this going in this direction? Because this feels like it's going in this direction. Oh, good, it didn't go in that direction. Okay, we're good. We're safe. All right, cool. Um, so that would be the main thing that I would say is um jarring, fearful, unnerving. Um outside of that, as it pertains to oversexualization, it's kind of going back to what Sayo Nick Cosplay said about the fact that it's still going on, there's still a need for it. Why are we, you know, in 2022, like in a regular anime, like a mainstream anime? Why can I see, you know, everything? Like she struck a post. I can see every access point to her body. Why is that well why is that necessary? Um, there has to be another way to do it, I guess. Um, I I'm not an artist, so I can't really say, but it's and and the I think the worst part is just the age. Because like I said earlier, most of these characters are between the ages of like nine and sixteen.
SPEAKER_06Um that goes for all you MHA people too. They're still high schoolers.
SPEAKER_05Let's oh by far. I mean, come on, it's it's literally my hero academia. Right. UA. UA high school. Come on, pay attention. Um, and don't forget they went they go to high school earlier than we did. So niggas ain't getting out of 18. Don't forget.
SPEAKER_06Maybe people are all over Baku Gokasa. I'm like, you know he's a child, right?
SPEAKER_05I'm saying. And you know what? To take it to another level, what'd you say?
SPEAKER_02I'd be on I'd be on uh total suit.
SPEAKER_00Pull it back.
SPEAKER_06Pull it back, pull it back. You are icy thigh.
SPEAKER_02I am an icy thigh, you're right.
SPEAKER_06Oh no.
SPEAKER_04Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_01There you're saying, you know, this kind of like the anticipation that you're thinking it's something, and then it's gonna be it's something completely different. And there was one anime that had recently showed up about like a couple weeks ago, and it was Bastard. And I was like, Oh, I like the art of this. Oh, good. I was I was just thinking about it. I was like, what the fuck is this? I was so aggravated because the art, I was like, oh, this is interesting, you know, like the the you know, the end of the world, there's gonna be a goddess to bring, you know, hell to everybody. I'm like, oh, this is an interesting concept. I like the art. Huh? Right, right, right. It gave me the art reminded me Chronicles of Reddick, and I was for it. I was like, oh, I like this dark gothic type of like it was it wasn't overly shell shading. The guy looked like a like a fucking Inuyasha character, but whatever. I still rock with it. He looked like a Rena Inuyasha, but I still was rocking with it until the damn scenes with the women. I'm like, you got to be kidding me. It was I didn't know I was watching a harem anime. I was pissed because I was like, this is not what I signed up for. Not saying that there's nothing wrong with it.
SPEAKER_05Not this is not to defend the anime, I'm just gonna say, if you remember, a couple months ago, Kaze said, because we had talked about upcoming anime, Kaze said they're going to make an anime adaptation of Bastard. And he had read it years ago because it's just not a new anime or new concept. And he specifically said, I wonder how they're going to animate it, because Bastard is not a happy go-lucky anime. There are some things in there that they're going to have to work out when they transfer it from manga to anime. So he gave you a warning.
SPEAKER_01I don't remember. I probably probably just went right over it right over my head, to be honest. That's a strange name for anime. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06I'm not gonna lie, they didn't start saying the word bastard until like a couple episodes in. I was like, okay, I was waiting for why we were calling the show bastard. I mean, I get it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I wasn't understanding, yeah. I wasn't understanding either. And then how Netflix did the um the trailer was very smart. That's how you get people in. Because if I knew what the fuck it was, I wouldn't have watched it.
SPEAKER_06But so I'm glad you brought it back. Because like, despite all of the other women in the show, I was like, all right, you know, the the the moments are there, but I'm still relatively entertained. Also, the show wasn't so I actually could have I skipped a couple episodes of the show, mostly because I was doing other things. Like I the plot wasn't so linear that I couldn't keep up. Um, it wasn't until we got to that elf bitch that Which one Lilane?
SPEAKER_01In her name? Nene, right?
SPEAKER_06I don't know, but she I it was it was the I and to add up, I'm using this to kind of add on to think that we didn't mention that because we talked about the right, but the grooming is definitely something that continues to occur. Um also to quickly hop back to that moment in Scalin tonight, that's what you brought up. Like, that was a satisfying moment for me because I had the like, here we go again. And then it was like, oh, okay, good. This is and I I think that was a good moment for the show because it was like, this is who we are. This is what we're going to be, this is what, this is how we're going to handle these things. I was like, I trust you from here on out, and they didn't disappoint me. So I appreciate that on the scale tonight. But uh back to Bastard. Yeah, no, the the concept of of grooming and like this, this like really uh egregious or inappropriate age gap between characters and then raising them and then basically raising them and mentoring them, being some sort of like surrogate guardian, mentor, uh parental figure to them, and then just fucking them afterwards, like developing these kinds of relationships that that are sketch in sus in a number of different ways, that I think really continues to underpin a lot of really problematic age distinctions that we have currently. Um, and I think other things do this too, like the whole like LollyCon thing and like people being lollyhags and stuff like that, like the whole kind of like Lolita fetishization, um, I think definitely contributes to that in a number of different ways. Um but it it it's it's such a weird problem. It's such a weird problem.
SPEAKER_00It's so true.
SPEAKER_06And I don't know why that let me not lie, I could discern a number of different reasons as to why, some a lot of them being historical, a lot of them being uh cultural in some aspects, but even then, uh as like an ethicist, um, just because something's cultural doesn't mean that it's right, right? Like just because something has historically or culturally occurred for a long period of time doesn't necessarily mean that it's okay, right? It's just been a practice that's been happening for a minute. And it it like it's I don't, I don't know, like if I were to think of a solution, like my more extreme side is just that we can just start, you know, murking people. I'm not against certain kinds of genocide, but but um kidding, not kidding. But it's just like what's I don't what do you all think though is the solution there to like stop glamorizing like really like large age gap relationships or like stop normalizing certain things regardless of the genre? Like what do you all think would could be some sort of like possible solution to steering away from these kinds of under looking at these kinds of relationships and understanding them in like these really uh more romanticized ways or glamorized ways that when actuality in a very practical sense, it's a very problematic.
SPEAKER_01Oh wow, there's a lot of unpacking from for for that question. Um, we can, I mean, that and that's something that's not just with anime, that crosses over to everywhere. I mean, there's there's this um protector, I call it like a protector syndrome in a way, like, oh, I love it when they're older because they're my protector. There's some, you know, it's just that I guess that weird aesthetic where the older they are and the younger I am, I feel protected. I feel safe. And I'm like, no, bitch, that's fucking pedophilia. And that's kind of like but that's how I see it. And I think that's how they they have uh camouflaged it in a pretty bow, and and it's very unnerving. Um, you know, how we see it in in um the media. You can have someone who is freaking what who was it, Dane Cook?
SPEAKER_06Yes. Oh, I'm not sure. Yes, that man is 50 and is engaged to this 23-year-old who appeared. They're like five years. Five years of, you know, it was like nine, nine years of friendship and five years of like being in love. I was like, you know, regardless of how you do that math, he met this child between the ages of nine. He's been he's known this child between the ages of nine and fourteen, regardless of how you do that math, regardless of whether that five years is included in that nine years, or whether that's happened before or after that five years, like that that is very weird math. And I think it's like, I mean, to be perfectly honest, I don't think a lot of people will, I think the internet will give space for that kind of thing to be side-eyed, but so many people the so many people have been like sexually like exploited or sexually George and Jane Jetson.
SPEAKER_01I heard about that, I heard about that, I heard about oh my god, it's so funny you said that. Yeah, because I like when watching the show, you don't even know their ages, but it's like what Jane was like 16 when she got pregnant with with George, Judith, would you like the the math ain't math and the math ain't math and George was like 30 or 30 or something? Well in his 30s, yeah, something like that.
SPEAKER_06How many people how like how many folks in Junior? This is news to me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I just saw a TikTok on it uh a couple days ago.
SPEAKER_06It was a um comedian, I think, who did that.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it was a comedian.
SPEAKER_06How many of us know someone who like between the ages like 14 and 18 had someone who was like 20, like 25 plus, like try to fuck them or actually did fuck them. And it's like, oh yeah, this is this thing's like no, that actually doesn't make a lot of sense.
SPEAKER_01Um this is my older, you know, partner. This is my partner, and I'm so excited for my partner, and we're in high school, and their partner, so quote unquote, is in their fucking mid-20s. Like, that is statutory rape. I don't, I don't, there's nothing that a god, how do I how do I how do I try to calm down from this? When you are in your teens, right? You just start to develop, you know, either you, you know, you have your cycle or men have their quote unquote wet, well, boys have their quote unquote wet dream. So you're just developing at what maybe between 10 and 13. That that alone, you just have that that biological change, but we're still children, we don't know what that even means. This is new change, so to speak. So let's go by 13. You're 16 after three years, you don't even know anything about yourself, you just learn these new reproductive organs, what they do, what the fuck they're for. And then to have a grown ass person right, you have a grown ass person that's basically grooming and being a predator to you, taking using you at your most vulnerable state, and then making you feel that they are your savior, they are your protector. No, that's fucking wrong. Like none of us a lot of people didn't even know what the fucking clip was.
SPEAKER_06Let's not let's be a lot of people.
SPEAKER_05Let's let's let's try to stay as close as we can to the topic as possible. Because I was gonna I was gonna add on, but you didn't hear me add on the fact that and then some of these people who call themselves protector, after you get out of their age range that they prefer, leave you on the side of the road and then go find somebody even younger.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. That's what I mean. I don't know if there's really anything that we can do but just um uh aware to be aware and to really have it exposed out for what it is. And I think that's why um on a societal level we've kind of noticed it more, is because we've been hearing it more. And before we've just kind of like, we just took it as, yeah, that's fucking weird. We just kept it moving. But now, like, no, no, no, that's a problem. Like, I mean, look at us, we're in our 30s and we're hearing about George Jesson. We never thought about it all of our entire, you know, also elementary.
SPEAKER_06I don't think it came up in like an episode. Like, oh, how old are these people? It's like you just assume, like, oh, these are like no no no, they said their names during the episode, but again, they were kids. I mean, their ages, yeah.
SPEAKER_01They're ages. I think you have to look it up, you have to look it up, something like that. Like, I I think, yeah, like because I mean you have to look up, I don't know, like we could like um how old is uh Scooby-Doo or how old is Daphne? Like, those are things that usually we look up. So I mean, sometimes I looked it up just for fun, like, oh, you know, to kind of feel familiar to the character that you're watching. Um, so we probably either looked it up or someone, but it just kind of it really just goes over ahead because we don't think about it. We see it as everybody is happy and loving, and you know, it's good times. So we don't see the nefair, you know, that that that nefarious background to it. Like, no, that that she was she that was statutory rage. You know, and and we I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_06No, I was gonna say there's all I think there's also like an impulse to just kind of like place some sort of level of appropriateness to things going on without actually looking deeper into them.
SPEAKER_05I don't know, because now that I think about it, thinking about those episodes, uh uh um um Jane's mama hated George, and now I know why.
SPEAKER_01That is funny, it's not funny.
SPEAKER_06I just realized that you know what Wilma's mom didn't like Fred neither. Maybe we should.
SPEAKER_05Oh, see, we don't know them. Oh we've been the dude that oh Jesus. Oh Lord. I about to Google this right now, but I was gonna say to answer your question, um, with what can we do? I don't know how much we can do. And I'll save that to kind of go back to what you were explaining about fan service, because if fan service is the without using your specific definition, because uh I could not in any way repeat it, but if fan service, paraphrasing, is creating some type of imagery that satisfies a specific fan's wants or needs or expectations inside of a show or an anime, then if I'm doing this, art imitates life, if I'm doing this on a consistent basis, then seeing myself on screen and seeing the types of things that I like, whether it's a Lolicon, Sundre, uh uh Cougar, um uh uh reverse harem, whatever I would like or whatever I would expect, and I see it on screen. I'm either what's the cut word? Uh uh not justified, not vindicated. What's that word? The one in the between. Uh I can't remember. But I I am I am put in a place of comfort because I see what I'm doing, I see what I am expecting, and I see what I like.
SPEAKER_01Validated? Validated?
SPEAKER_05Validated validated, thank you. See, I knew it was somewhere in between. Thank you. So I'm validated. And at the end of the day, when you say what can we do as a as a society, it's you know, people always talk about society's dregs, and you know, society's dregs on our end of the spectrum may call us society's dregs because we're upholding this moral and ethic uh compass and they're just doing whatever they feel like is comfortable to them. So it's like, they don't always do that, but you know, whatever. It's it's it's like unless one side says we need to get rid of the other or we all decide to stop doing it, it's not much we can do. Because, like Sayone was saying, we're bringing to light a lot of those things now that we're getting older because we're our our quote unquote teachings as we were growing up, whether it was on TV or whether it was from our parents, are now being actualized with the things that we're seeing on a daily basis. So when we're told that, you know, you need to be close in age to somebody, or you, you know, what's rape and what's not rape, what ages are comfortable and what's a parent and all this other stuff. So when our our feelings about certain things are being triggered, we're like, okay, well, that's not okay because I feel it's not okay and it makes me uncomfortable, so it must not be okay. But if that's not what the other person feels, then how do we who needs to change or what needs to change or what needs to be effectively modified? How can we change over sexualization of women in anime if the expectation of certain people is that it should be there? I mean, you could talk to a lot of guys right now, and I'm not gonna count out any of them, but you could talk to any one of them, and they're like, I don't see anything wrong with what's on the screen. Her boob should look like that. Her butt should look like that. I should see her half naked. I mean, it makes sense. I I I was reading, like I said, I was preparing for this episode, and I was reading on uh uh it was uh uh an article from uh I think a magazine or newspaper where a woman she's in her 20s and she's talking about you know anime that she's watched over years and how you know women are oversexualized. And in the comments, there are guys saying, Well, men are being oversexualized too.
SPEAKER_06Where's the uh porn hub or X video is probably there, but uh because where?
SPEAKER_02Like, I mean, you you'll see you'll see you might see some, you know, you're not gonna see it in the anime. You'll see, you know, merch that sexualizes them or merch, you can fan art.
SPEAKER_05That makes me very uncomfortable. I would say that. Them figures of Gojo and Insta Shamaru, I'm very uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_01Hey, look, hey, look at that. I'm very uncomfortable. There is one, though. There is one, and it was Gamagori and Kill A Kill. That was that was actually the one I was trying to get back to. Um that was very interesting, even though it was kind of strange because Mako was still in high school, but Gabagori is definitely in fucking 20.
SPEAKER_06He was.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, he was, he was, he like was, I don't know, he like failed a couple times or some shit like that. But he was a grown-ass fucking man. So um, but when it comes to the sexualization, he had like the BDS substitute and that shit. That was I I loved it because it was just so out of pocket for me. And that's something I never, ever seen before. Um, that was a first for me. So I think that was the one time I've ever seen a sexual sexualization of a of a male character ever that I can remember. Um, and then it wasn't just him, it was like the nudest beach, the nudest.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, the whole nudest beach thing, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but that was the first time. And I remember it because it was just it was such an impact for me because I was like, oh, I've never seen this before. Like this is this is this is hilarious. And not only that, for them to bring in like BDS to make him a sub, that was just too much for me. It was it was too much in the best way possible because that's something again you don't ever see. You usually see the women or the femme characters tied up with Shabari or have a gag ball or a sock or whatever to look like the damsel. We have this tall, huge grown man that could fuck everybody up. But him being submissive was just very interesting. Um, again, I do like Hillakill because it was just so out of pocket and such a huge um slap in the face for what it was a huge parody. So I thought it was, of course, I think they really played on what we already see and just pushed it up a notch to be like, oh, y'all already see this shit in high school animes anyway. So we just gonna make y'all really fucking uncomfortable. So that I that I think I just kind of took it as it was just funny because of it was a gross parody of a lot of animes to me. But Gamagory for sure, that was the only sexualization of like a male character that I've ever seen in my entire life in anime, which was refreshing. I liked it.
SPEAKER_05Miss Kittles, any uh over sex sexualization of men? I know you have been looking.
SPEAKER_02Have I seen? I mean, now that uh Sayone mentions it, yeah, because I saw Kill Out Kill, but uh outside of that, um I wouldn't say it was over sexualization, uh but uh Sinbad, there there were times where I feel like or it might have just been in my head, but in that anime where it was just like very suggested, like oh, like yeah, like I like I get bitches, or I I don't know how I don't know how to describe it.
SPEAKER_01Um with Dreamworks and Oh, I love that's a good one.
SPEAKER_02That's it with and like I said, it part partially it might have been my own fantasies, but he had the he had the swag. Uh I don't think it was over sexualization, it was just sexualization, and it was just like I'm the I know that I'm that nigga, but I'm also a good guy, but I know that I can I can I can I can pull that princess if I wanted to, like, like yeah. I don't feel like I kind of don't want to say that's the same thing that it's like yeah, that's why I said I don't know if it I don't feel like it was over sexualization.
SPEAKER_01I it was just he was tied up. I I maybe that's because of my head, but I did feel some weaves when he got tied up though.
unknownI don't know.
SPEAKER_06It definitely sounds like that might have just you know that might have just you know, safe space and all that.
SPEAKER_02But outside of that, I don't think it happened. I don't think it really happens. Um, I feel like yeah, we see we see male anime characters, you know, shirtless and and you know, they but they're it's not in the context of sexualization like how it is when we see female characters in their underwear or you know, they they go to the the uh the the hot spring and you know like we got we gotta see the titties floating above the the water. Like like is it's never like that. And I've and I and if there is an anime out there besides like something that is purposely um I forget I don't know how to pronounce it. It starts with an A with the with the um LGBTQ boys. Um I I don't I don't I don't know what regular anime uh over sexualizes anything. Yeah that yeah is it it starts okay that's a Y then there's an A in there I had to like there's a I look yeah I just know it's a thing and um and the girls love that but it's not boy love even like boy love type stuff like doesn't go as far as regular anime does oh okay but boy love isn't sex boy love really isn't sexualizing it's the it's the drama and the stories behind it's the genre yeah I just know I I mean well maybe it's mostly fan art that I be seeing because they be talking about this shit and then all of a sudden they drop pictures and I be like oh no you're absolutely right because like even when even when it comes to like what like sushi was saying when it comes to like a lot of boy love stuff like it's mostly about romance um and it uh you don't get even with like more yeah even you won't get into like anything like super sexual until you get to like yaoi or you get to like bada yaoi or like those different like areas and genres but on the surface like boy love type stuff is closer to just slice some light shit really yep even in media like like as in like watching like a show on Netflix it's just funny that you said that even when it comes to like boy love or like male love like when it comes across on like a show's um I was just watching um Sandman it was innocent it looked innocent but I don't see that same innocence when it comes to like women or like if they were like a lesbian company no no and that's I think that's that's also I mean it's also a part of mainstream mess uh western media in general like I mean if you think back to like you know HBO or cinem Cinemax after dark and all that shit they they cinema every every aspect of the woman's body and they never showed a penis on that job ever ever you never saw that I've been looking too I've been looking I've been looking I'm like come on man yeah you'd be waiting you'd be waiting for that one shot where it like slip out or you see the balls or something nope never now but also something that I noticed so it's interesting that you brought that up Sina and that's part of and I think it there's a weird kind of like there's like multiple different phenomena happening there but I think that's something that kind of speaks to that particular kind of distinction of like in in media even in Sandman when you saw like it was much more innocent.
SPEAKER_06I think that when it comes to a lot more masked bodies or like cis male bodies or like you know a man uh assigned male at birth bodies um there's not a lot of there's not a lot of innocent representation or a lot of like romantic representation in that way a lot of it uh a lot of it has been or has been communicated or portrayed as this really like visceral kind of sexual thing. And I think that a lot of a lot of a lot of the cisqueer community when it comes to uh men don't have that many healthy representations of what those kind of connections are supposed to look like without somehow um forcefully inserting pun intended um some like degree of sexual relationship which I also think why you know not talking about moonlight but I also think why a lot of people were upset with the ending of Moonlight because it didn't have this like sexual payoff. It was legitimately just you know kind of a romantic relationship and a romantic connection between two people. And when it comes to like stuff like boy love or when it comes you know what we see in salmon it's like there's a disproportionate amount of media in those terms.
SPEAKER_05So like in the same way that you will more easily gain access to TNA in a regular ass anime like even in a show like Komi can't communicate even though there's not much of it like there is still like that level of fan surface of the sexualization of the female body um but you it's you don't you will get that consistently across the board from slice of life to shown in to shown in anime to iskai and like the across the board right various genres even like shojo and like Sailor Moon and stuff like that you'll get more of that consistently but you do not get um like more AMAS cis male body like kind of queer representation in that non-sexual way right and I think that that I think there's uh absolutely like a number of different reasons for that like I I wish I could just pigeonhole one but there's not that that would be I mean one big one is just the fact that they the the concept of queer love is for those who are not queer is that it is perverse in some way shape or form which is why most characters that are painted or are designed to be queer are always or have from the starting point have come off as some type of perverse um or just outright pervert um on the screen.
SPEAKER_06Yeah and I also think that you know part of part of the part of a another phenomenon associated with that is that there's not a authentic off there's not an authentic understanding of romantic connections and a lot of what that means in real life as well as in animation. No, they just don't care to do the research no not specifically just in animation but I mean legitimately in an art imitation like way life kind of way like those actualizations of it in animated forms look more innocent because it's not as present in real life and so there needs to be some representation of it because so many people are devoid of it in a number of different ways but final thoughts because we already tried figuring out how we can fix it and I don't uh from what I understood we can't currently fix it with the people that we have on this planet.
SPEAKER_05So unless we're about to restart it like uh like Chris Evans said um I'm not sure how we're going to do it.
SPEAKER_01So uh the final question I'm not against that adjustment oh boy the final question will be uh and let's keep it short and and and spicy um what is a tolerable andor ingestible amount of sexualization because you know when you think about it the the word we use was over sexualization because we know you know there's going to for the most part there's some level of sex in almost everything on television in some way shape or form well in anime I mean I say television I say anime um so what is a stomachable ingestible uh palatable amount of sexualization um and you could give an example of an anime or you can just explain what you mean and we will start who did we start with last time I think we started with cycane one time Miss Skittles one no missquittes yes no come back okay sign the cosplay um I would say I love subtleties and I think um when we think of what turns you on so to speak um thank you Smithers for turning me on um I think of non-sexual uh communications that can turn you on and and and I think that is what as viewers kind of is more cerebral in a way of course anybody can see Titty's ass and and and dick and whatever like but that's not the point because you have to warm us up right to get to to get to that level and I think it's like the subtleties the subtle touchings. I think that's why when we were kids we were like watching like you know Yashua like dude because we were it was it was the anticipation because we saw the flirting and I think the flirting the subtleties that that that subtle brush past them sorry that's my my Jamaican mom in the back. So the uh the subtleties um of like somebody brushing past you uh the subtleties of like you're trying to get something next to someone and you look like you're about to kiss them but you don't you just need to get like the the little uh um pepper corn shaker right behind their head and they're just out here hot and bothered and you know like or I I love that because it's like what's going on so I think I really enjoy that and I think because I enjoy it for me um I'm not someone that really gets like turned on easily at all and so for me it's always like subtle it's always subtle it's like you know the the brush past like my neck to just like maybe fix my collar like that that that shit that that's it for me. I don't need much I don't need much like when it comes to but it's always for me I think it's an art of subtlety that a lot of people have not mastered um either in media or in real life. Oh yeah so when I see it and then that's just how I feel when I see it it's so refreshing. I can't remember an anime specifically off the top of my head I do I feel like I've seen some but just kind of like the subtle behaviors of when like you see like a I don't know protagonist that really has a crush on someone and then that crush you know kind of brushes past them not really like caring so to speak about them but it's just like like that stuff like oh my god they just fucking touch me like I think I really I really like that and that sexual tension does come across as equal as the fan service and I think a lot of people don't like to kind of think of it that way but we we all get kind of like bot hot and bothered when we see that like oh wow you know and then you you have that reaction without having to see the goal goal being like to be bad you know but like you can get you can have that that revving up the the the the rising climax before you actually get to the peak so to speak um but again not many people have that skill to uh express that in art or in real life so I think that's why it's such a a challenge so to speak um to really like bring that across to animation or even to bring that across I think people do it better live action to be honest actually I think people do it better in live action than in anime I don't know why because when it's done in anime it's it still has the same effect but I feel like live action does that better
SPEAKER_05to me than just like over like ecy because I wanted to use the right term uh that the black mokay g the black mocoy gave us the ecchy uh I would say nuances in an anime so yeah um I will I have a uh okay I'll do mine now so I I agree and but there are several anime that I have seen that I feel like have done it better than live action because I've seen you know I've watched movies and TV shows and stuff like that. Not a lot of them but I've watched them and in them for me and maybe it's because you know I you know it's closest to real life than you know opposed to an anime it always feels awkward to me but the wrong type of awkward not like the sexual tension awkward it always feels like it's um uh unrealistic like it like it it doesn't feel like it's an something that could actually take place but in an anime um in an example is um uh Miyano and Sasaki is one of the ones I nominated earlier this year for um the um what's it called the uh uh anime review episode and like there that one is a it is a BL it's a boy love um anime and the like you said the the the the tension the interaction like these individuals didn't even know like they met each other and didn't even know what was going to take place right so the you know brushing past the uh the shoulder to get like cat hair off of somebody's jacket the you know uh you're about to trip the person catches you and now there's this like level of closeness that you didn't anticipate the heart palpitations that you you know your your blood is you know rising and your face is changing color and you don't want the other person to see so you have to like I'm gonna go home early I'm just gonna leave them not feeling well like those types of interactions those types of communications it's in anime and it can be done correctly I think the issue is a lot of and going back to what you said which is one of the things I agree with a lot of people don't know how to combine those types of interactions with the plot points that they're trying to convey because with Sasaki and Miyano the point is this this plot this interaction between these two till they get to the point where they're maybe in a relationship or not in a relationship. But if you're trying to do a shonen or you're trying to do you know something where there's a war going on or you know there's mages and a fight and all this other stuff if that's your main plot and that's what you know how to create you don't necessarily know how to build those idiosyncrasies of the relationship of the interaction uh that can also take place which is why it always feels like you know people like Esdeff just fallen over this main character who hasn't gotten to the point where he needs to be where he where Ez Def should be even looking at it. It's why you know you're in certain storylines and it always feels like you know they're rushing like I've always felt like in in a lot of anime they rush the relationship and you know we're we're we're moving forward and all of a sudden in in in episode three or four the main female character is head over heels in love with the the main character and the main character is completely oblivious because of course the main character is a male um in most of these. So like I I've never liked that like what'd you say? Which is very much like real life. 100% and like I've never liked that because it's like is it possible that that's the case? Yeah I'm not gonna say that women can't fall in love with men before a man realizes that he's desirable because that happens in real life. So I'm not gonna deny that fact um it's happened to me plenty of times um but realistically when you are in a situation where an individual is interested in you or when the anime character when when the love interest is interested in the character they showcase it not too often but they show they show all of the different aspects like and sometimes it go it because of how much they show it almost borderlines insanity or obsession not insanity but obsession and that is the part that really grinds my gears because it's like she's whether she's a teenager whether she's a grown woman whatever she is or he or they are he or they are the fact that you're now taking this what is obviously a love interest or an attraction and because you're showing every aspect of it you're showing what I'm saying out of my mouth you're showing my physical you're you're showing my uh physical changes you're showing what's inside my head what I'm thinking when I'm at home like you're showing all of these different aspects on top of what's going on in the main plot and storyline. So now it seems like I'm not focused on fighting this uh this enemy I'm more obsessed about my love interest or the person I have the crush on and comey can't communicate like the the the communicate the um the connection with kome and I'm gonna mess up his name shoot Tadano who Tadano Tadano I can't hear you can't oh Tadano yes thank you todano uh the interaction between the two of them and of course everybody else in the class who loves Kome or well no how was it say love um they show each and every person's own individual path towards being able to communicate and interact with Komey but that's the premise that's the plot of the of the anime it's showing Komey's journey to overcoming her her her speech um her communication issues and how everybody else is learning what they that she has them and how they're individually overcoming them to become friends or potentially more with Kome because that's the plot. And I feel like they're doing very well certain ones are a little bit off you know I'm not gonna point out any particular characters but you know all of them are finding their own way specifically to Dano and Comey how they're slowly growing closer to one another and it's not immediately apparent I mean for maybe the viewer who watches a lot of stuff it might be but they keep it just far enough where it's not one overly apparent right and that I would say is what might be the most difficult thing about potentially putting a lot of this on screen or or what's the difference between like real life and and anime is like with anime it can be done and they've done it before but I just I feel like you need a whole nother team of writers or producers on that aspect of the story to be able to properly convey that um without it seen seeming like an afterthought because that that's why I think we're so impatient too yeah like I 100% agree with you.
SPEAKER_01I think we've just grown impatient including me it reminded me what you were saying reminded me of um this Korean drama uh called Boys Over Flowers that people are going crazy for um I would say my early 20s I think I was like 21 and it was this K drama that was a romance and never in my life was I so fucking frustrated because it was all the subtleties but it it it took too long. It was like has some people take too long it was very realistic and also I do think it was a it was a lot of cultural references as well because Korea is very conservative. So for me as a Westerner I'm like fucking kisser. But I could but I can't do that because I'm actually I'm immersing myself in their world right but it was but but but a lot of Westerners loved it it was I I don't even think people even remember like if I talked to a couple of my friends but it was like a huge phenomenon here. And I think that's right when Netflix kind of was starting to get bigger and then like Boys Over Flowers came over in the K dramas but it took 10 hours 10 episodes to get one fucking kiss and I was like I can't do this anymore. But I think that's the build up no that's not I think again I think I've been I think we all in a way have been kind of desensitized guitar four seasons right yeah like I'm like I don't know like subtleties I like the subtleties but I think when you're watching certain things like I think I'm more tolerable with anime than I am with live action and I think that's really what it is. So going back to what you're saying um I think yeah I I do agree that anime does do it better than live action because live action is like we're in in America or Western like the Western is we're so used to seeing like kissing in like two hours.
SPEAKER_04Two hours yeah two hours so I think our to be perfectly honest with you you're right I missed that weapon take two hours to be perfectly honest with you.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah you're you're a hundred percent correct we can get a kiss in a in in a half hour to be honest so I think it's like right so I'm like I think we've just become very I don't know impatient I don't know if it's either impatient or maybe it's just our culture on how it's our culture.
SPEAKER_06Everything's now now now fast food all that jazz I I think there's I don't think that the notion of expediency or immediate uh gratification is inherently like the kind of part or even like partly the thing that just drives that in some instances um yes but also I think that uh Sonia I do definitely agree on like the nature of the kind of more subtle art of those those moments with a person right but I also disagree on in some language aspects with sushi in terms of like interaction or you know like in describing those moments as such in those ways because I think it's very I think it creates more of a distance between the moment rather than actually addressing the moment because I think when it comes to things like slice of life when I think I think when it comes to understanding those those moments with those people it's it's not really about interactions that you can interact with a fork and still keep moving. But you can all but it's more so about this more this more human kind of connectivity right and I think that those moments that we all kind of agree on that we like we love every we love to talk about oh we love those subtle moments those little brushless paths but those are moments of connection and I think that's more so the point behind them because these people are connecting in these ways that are really massive for them and they're not massive for them because it's like oh this was this this was this uh unexpected interaction but it's it's massive because it's like oh I connected with this person in this really intimate way that I wasn't really fully expecting and there's a there's a fundamental kind of uh aspect of vulnerability there that gets uh reached or this which which is like this kind of like well of untapped potential so to speak and once it gets tapped though those are what those moments are more prescriptive of and descriptive of in my personal uh reading of many of these things right because it's easy to as someone who is unfortunately um burdened with a much more romantic view of things I blame Disney partly partly for that but but someone someone who's like burdened with this much more romantic perception of things yes I do think it's extremely unrealistic for a myriad of different reasons and that's partly because there is that awkwardness there is this kind of more uh disassociated relationship especially in Western culture and dealing with Western people um and how those moments actualize themselves like I can I can actively say that I've had moments like that for me like moments of that reach past my that reach past my face or that like like so that wrap around my waist or like the the like like the subtle touch to my shoulder or something like that that was really emotionally driving and those moments that described in some anime where they like it turns into this weird obsession that's just as affirmative and validating because like again it's just like in kakiguri like they're hyper realizing the way someone is feeling and maybe it's difficult to connect with someone who has that level of intensity in terms of their emotions and how actively and genuinely affects their day-to-day functionality but that's very much that's just as real as those subtle moments right thinking about that brush or thinking about that person that truly has that that's living in your head and living in your heart rent free on a level that may not be intelligible because it may not be it may not be connecting with a certain way in which one perceives you know those things ought to happen right but that's the beauty of the multiplicity of the way these things occur there is no set path there is no there is no blueprint there is no comfortable way in which these things occur they occur in the way they actualize themselves in the way in which they actualize themselves based on who is there and how it occurs right because love can love can be manic uh romance can be manic those that kind of tension can be very manic especially when it goes um unaddressed or when it goes untapped or when it goes where it's treated in a way that is distanced rather than is connected right um and I think it's complicated to actually navigate partly because we have so many narratives and we have so many um ways in which we try to discern uh how or how these things happen and you know when they happen and so on and so forth. But I think that it kind of fundamentally undermines this more chaotic aspect of our existence is that we don't know when or how these things are supposed to happen, right? And we can believe that they're supposed to happen in a certain way but you have people who met in the span of like three months and got married and been there been with each other for like 20 some odd years. You have folks who you know been together or been talking or dating or been you know having those kind of subtle moments for like two or three years and get together and never then they don't last that long right and that there's so much variety and so much um there's so much variety and there's so much nuance to the way in which people connect not specifically relate or interact in some way but like legitimately in this very much more kind of cosmic quasi pseudo spiritual way in which people connect with one another right and if you don't see those moments in real life as connective connect connecting connecting moments right versus seeing them in this much more kind of metallic or kind of um clinical kind of way right as being strictly this this this thing right this interaction rather than this moment of connectivity because I think the this the distinction between using interaction versus connection right is that connection requires and this is more so like the more moral ethical side of my moral philosophical ethical side of my brain working like connection almost mandates a degree of vulnerability that interaction doesn't actually demand of you in a certain way right one requires and I could probably parse this out a lot more later but one requires a level of one requires a level of transparency that transcends one's psychological relationship to their immediate sense of self and their immediate kind of relation or uh immediate acknowledgement acknowledgement of the thing or the person in front of them right while the more connective aspect is going to demand that there is something that needs to be surrendered, right? Or something that needs to be uh just deconstructed or something that needs to be made present or offered that may not actually be the most comfortable. And I think something that's something that you can speak to or that can be spoken to in terms of those subtle moments that you both that I would say that we all three of us kind of agree on is that there is something jarring about those moments for these characters and that's why they're realized or artistically shown in the ways that they are and I can fully affirm that those things happen in real life but because of the way in which they've been fictionalized right it makes them that much more unrealistic because what human being has that level of like has that level of competency what in what human how many actually not how many human beings have that level of competency have that depth of um capacity to be acknowledging of those things or even if the feelings of those moments are not there then that can easily lead to an asymmetry that is that's actually probably worse. But that's a part of the thing that's a part of the thing as well right so before I like kind of ramble on anymore to kind of answer the core question that was in the that was asked um I don't think that there's an amount that one can infer right and I think that because overall there's a much larger context that needs to be um had in terms of like sexualization in terms of like what that looks like right because anywhere between those subtle kind of moments to those really like rapey moments and being using that as an extreme right but there it is it is okay to have all of them right but and it's okay to have them in whatever amount that is deemed necessary or deemed appropriate um by a number of different factors, right? But how we contextualize those things and the way in which we utilize them is really important. I always think of like what Itachi said about I think it was Itachi what he said about like the shine gun or whatever like um it is simply just a tool right and it's how the tool is used. The tool itself isn't particular using the tool itself isn't particularly bad. So using these things as like narrative devices in some way are not bad or like there's no like too like yeah I'll stop there. It's not bad per se, right? But it's the the way in which those tools become used that helps inform where the problem might actually be right because if you have a hammer you use the like hammer nails then you know you're using the tool in a way that is for all intempts and purposes you know it's it's a it's an appropriate way to use that tool but if you bash someone the fucking head then that's not an appropriate way to use that tool right so I think that's and you know that I think that metaphor was a uh a little a little rocky so to speak it wasn't it was kind of it wasn't really you know fully all together but I I I hope that got the point across so I don't think that that's an answerable question. I don't think there is an amount that one can say is appropriate or inappropriate but I do think that there is a there's a way in which those things are communicated that there's a way in which they're communicated that is that requires a level of temperance and a level of contextualization and acute awareness of not simply just the audience but of the the content that is being created all right and Miss Skittles you have been given time yes um uh so when it comes to levels uh for me in particular I'm just gonna keep it uh short and sweet um there are if we're talking about currently there are two anime that's out for me that that were like they there was like an extreme that was an it was enough where I wasn't like oh my god like the like all this fucking fancy I'm tired I like I I don't want it itchy whatever you want to call it um so the on the extreme end I would compare it to um the anime recent anime that I watched that was on the extreme end was um trapped in a dating sim so the um the main protagonist has two two ladies um in which I I feel like he he could have his choice of either or both or both um but um there are some there are some scenes in there where it's just a little extra like the the completely unnecessary like them being in the hot spring or you know like them hugging each other and it's like zooming like two touching each other like there there's some extreme moments in that anime that weren't too extreme for me.
SPEAKER_02But they weren't they weren't necessary but it wasn't it wasn't like fan service where I was just like ugh like okay and it wasn't doing it every five seconds. So the to me that particular anime currently is what I would call on the extreme end of fan service or edgy. Um And then on the lower spectrum spectrum, and I'm saying lower because I feel like anywhere between these two would be I'll find with Shield Hero. The interaction between the the main protagonist and uh R Raf Raf Rafaelia Yeah. Um and and and even which is kind of crazy, but the um what was the bird's name? Philo Philo, yeah. Well and and I and and Philo's was very innocent in in the in the way it was happening. Um it was still kind of inappropriate, but very innocent in the way it was happening, but technically is it inappropriate because you're the bird? I don't know. But um I just felt like it was very subtle, um, and and and it was very obvious that it was there at times, uh, especially when they were like talking about like random shit or like it would come up.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so much.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so it would come up and and but it was still it wasn't like it wasn't like oh like why are we talking about this at all? Like it was in context. Um clearly, you know, everybody was after the shield hero. So um I feel like that is on the lower end of what is palatable for me. Um I think you know it was tasteful.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So um, so that those are the two anime currently that I would like to compare what is too like oh like on the extreme end or you know at the lower end of the spectrum. Anything more than uh the dating sim, I would probably, I would probably notice it and then it would irritate me because then I would begin to notice it all throughout the anime. First, like the one scene or you know, one or two scenes where I'm like, oh, okay, there's a little, you know, okay, a little titty action, whatever. But um, if I start to notice it like how I did with Fire Force, it it becomes very uh irritating and it and it and it almost takes away from that the whole everything of the anime for me.
SPEAKER_05Okay, understood. All right, well, we have given you listeners, we have given you plenty to think about. Uh we actually want to start a discussion, a conversation about this uh a little bit more on our social media pages, specifically Facebook um as well as Instagram. So we will be opening up uh discussion uh in the next week or so, around the time this drops. Uh so please jump into the conversation. Let's you know talk a little bit more about the oversexualization of women in anime. And maybe somebody will show up with a uh with a defense of the oversexualization of men in anime. Maybe it'll come up. Um, but yes, let's uh wrap up the episode. Uh thank you, first off, panelists, for uh coming in. Thank you, listeners. Uh, I want to, of course, give you all the opportunity to let the listeners know where you can be found, where you can be reached, uh, starting with the black McCoy.
SPEAKER_06You can find me at the Black McCoy on Instagram. You can also find me at not black by choice on Instagram and not black by choice as well. It's on Facebook and not blackby www.notblackbychoice.com. So, you know, there are a number of different ways to reach me and reach my stuff. Reach out to those last three if you need anything in particular. I have a lot of stuff that I could uh give you. Give you, give you, yes. There are other channels, but those are mostly for uh games. Oh, you can I mean if you want a game, uh you can find me at Vibridge G290 on PSN and Baby G uh on uh what's that switch. There we go.
SPEAKER_05Mia Skittles.
SPEAKER_02Um, you can find me at Nz Z Skittles uh T R underscore cosplay on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok, and on Twitter it's N-I-Z uh Skittles uh 87.
SPEAKER_01Sione cosplay.com.
SPEAKER_05And I can be reached at uh Suchi No Shogun, Suchi underscore no underscore shogun on Instagram, also at blur creations, uh either www.blurcreations.com or blur creations shop on Facebook or Blur Creations at Blur Creations on Instagram and Blur Creations on TikTok. We are expanding. Um uh also with Blur Creations, we have uh unleashed the beast, the king of beasts, to be specific. Uh it is Leo season, and uh we are dropping our Leo box uh design created uh uh uh uh birthed uh by Ms. Skittles. Uh she has painstakingly worked very hard on this uh uh uh illustrious design, and uh we are coming out with boxes for every Zodiac sign, so stay tuned for yours. But as for now, the the the year starts and ends with Leo. So yes, so check out the Leo line, uh the Leo box, Zodiac Girls Leo box on blurcreations.com. Uh uh there is a special discount uh going on for the rest of the store, but the Leo box is up there. Check it out. Uh also I can be reached at Umbralstarcade uh.com or Umbralstarcade on YouTube, Instagram, uh, Twitter, uh, or Twitch. Uh and then um also, of course, we can be reached at the Blurred Spectrum Podcast, the Blurred Spectrum on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook, or the Blurred Spectrum at Umbralstarcade.com is our mailbag. Uh as we said, there will be a discussion coming soon following the drop of this episode. Stay tuned. Uh, our melanated solstice will continue during the summer. We will have more interviews going on for the rest of the summer or the solstice, sorry, not the summer, but the solstice. Uh, so stay tuned. Uh, and uh as always, uh Sayonada.