SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back to the Blurred Spectrum Podcast. We haven't been here for a couple of weeks. We've been working on new things starting off spring the right way. We have been talking about this episode since our brainstorming episode uh earlier this year. Uh I've been relatively excited uh about the topic. Uh, not because uh I I want to talk badly about a certain set of groups of people, but uh more so because I want uh our panelists to be able to uh give their experiences and maybe have our listeners uh feel some kinship uh uh with our panelists. Uh the episode, what is it called? It's called Cult Evading the Church. Uh yeah, the emphasis on that. Uh this episode is uh uh about certain traits that we might have felt, certain uh behaviors we may have noticed, certain feelings that weren't um what they may call godly. Uh stay hold fast to your intrusive thoughts because this episode is gonna get a little cringy. All right, but first I must, of course, introduce our panelists, starting with myself, your moderator, Suchino Shogun. Uh, then of course I have uh Miss Hayone cosplay. Hello, I have Lodger. What's good? And introducing Ms. Gibbs.

SPEAKER_05 1:22

Hello, hello, everyone.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

All right, so uh first uh I wanted to make sure I started with a couple of definitions of the word cult, just so we don't throw ourselves into any type of confusion or people are like, oh, we're calling all churches cults. No, that's not what we're doing. We're specifically talking about certain experiences and cult-like characteristics, not specifically saying this type of church or that type of church or this religion or that religion. No, no, no, no. We ain't about that life. So, first definition of cult I have is a relatively small group of people having beliefs or practices, especially relating to religion, that are regarded by others as strange or sinister or as imposing excessive control over their members. That's one example. Uh, another definition of or sub-definition of uh cult is a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular thing or person. Getting a little close to one, right? Right, right, right. Um, another one, uh, which I think this one might be a hot ticket item, is a system of religious sorry, a system of religion, hmm, now I can't speak. A see, maybe I shouldn't be saying it. A system of religious devotion directed towards a particular figure or object. And I think a lot of that, if you think about a lot of the 90s super churches, as they call them, uh, had something very similar to that particular definition of cult. Again, not saying that it is a cult, but just saying certain characteristics resemble such a thing. Now, one of the things during my research, and I've had actually extra time to research this, uh uh regarding uh millennials and their relationship with church or going to church, um, shows that there has been a stiff decline of attendance with millennials in church. And no, it's not because all the millennials are going to brunch on Sundays, but it's particular because most millennials had to endure a certain level of strict religious what word do I want to use? Strict religious rules and regulations go growing up in certain households. Uh, most uh, and um of course, I'll talk about everybody, but you know, of course, with a blurred spectrum podcast, so talk about the blurred. Uh so most of our households had to adopt certain Christian, uh, Muslim, uh, evangelical, uh, even some apostles, don't say it wrong now. Uh I'll just say AME type of regulations inside of our households. And because of that, a lot of the things that what we would call our friends or our non-church going acquaintances would not have to deal with made it seem awkward, made us seem like outcasts. And we already had the blur thing going on, but now you're gonna throw in church, and I'm like, I can't do nothing right. So uh first, what I want to do is I want to ask our panelists, and I'll also answer this question, but I want to ask our panelists, what would you consider a extremely not awkward, but extremely uh disassociate disassociative experience that you had growing up? Something that was that had to do with church. What experience did you have growing up where church disenabled you to interact with people who you considered friends, people who you considered colleagues, people who you considered classmates. Um, and I'll I'll start just to make it a little easier for our panelists. Uh, one big thing, and I know a lot of people experience this as well, is um I never, I don't I don't think the I think the first time I ever even stepped out of my house on Halloween night was way into my college years. Uh every year of my life, I participated in Hallelujah Night. And um Hallelujah Night is where you dressed up as biblical characters. And uh those of you who know my first name, my real first name, you know there was only one character I could be for 18 years of my life. Uh so I donned my sheets, uh, put a pillowcase around my head, and I rolled down to the church house every single year on October 31st. And um, you know, you would think, oh, that's not a big deal, you know.

SPEAKER_07 5:58

Who said it's not a big deal?

SPEAKER_01 5:59

That's the people in church.

SPEAKER_07 6:02

We we ain't talking about them. That's a huge deal. We ain't talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

But it um you know, the the first couple years you're like, oh, it's cool because you know they still give you candy and oatmeal, iced oatmeal cookies. That's why I have side note, that's why I have an addiction to iced oatmeal cookies. It's because of hallelujah, man. I'm gonna go ahead and put that on the side right there. But they are good cookies, though. I was saying I got a bag of them somewhere near me right now. Anyway, uh it's a it's a problem. Um, but you know, the first couple years, you know, getting to 10, 11, 12, you know, it's cool. You know, you're fine, you're not really thinking about it. But then when you start noticing that the next day at school, the next couple days at school, everybody, or even the days of leading up to it, everybody's talking about the different costumes, the different things. Um, oh, here's a good little branch into that. Um, you know, schools, not all schools participated in Halloween activities because, you know, they wanted to respect parents' wishes and things like that, but they also wanted the kids to have fun. So, and some of you may have had this around Halloween time, around the end of October, we had storybook character parades. And this is where you picked a favorite book of yours and you find a character out of that book, and you're enabled to dress as a character from that book. As long as you had that book with you, you could wear the costume all day. And then you might have storybook character parade parties in class. Teachers might buy cookies or pizza, something like that. So, you know, that gave the kids the opportunity. They'd buy a comic book, they'd buy a, you know, a novel of a superhero, and if they wanted to wear the superhero costume, they could walk through school, participate in the parade. Bow, you done. I wasn't even allowed to prepare participate in those because they said if I was reading those books, it was of the devil. So I'd have to wear my normal clothes to school, and thank God it wasn't for like a grade or nothing, because man, I'd have been failing in October. But uh, I didn't, I don't think I participated in the Storybook character parade until I think fifth grade. Fifth grade was the first grade, but everything leading up to that I didn't get to, and I remember that was the it was the year that I had a book about um I think it was a random book about ninjas, I think. Because I remember I was dressed as a ninja for the storybook character parade, so I had a book about ninjas anyway. Um not not the other type of ninja, but the actual ninjas. Um, but anywho, yeah, so that that's an experience of mine. So similar to that, or something even way out that panelists, do you have an experience that, you know, being in the church that you grew up in prevented you from experiencing certain things that other friends did? Like the doctor is ready. You want to go first?

SPEAKER_04 8:43

Sure. So it's interesting. I guess my context was a little unique in that my family, uh, much of my family on mom's side was Southern Baptist. And like my great-grandfather was the pastor, and you know, we had everyone was in this church. And if you know anything about Southern Baptists, uh they're pretty far on the fundamentalist scale as far as like Christian churches go. Um, you know, not a fan of like the gays or even like women in general, like you know, get a lot of heat in the church, it's like it's kind of a mess. But what um, but because my school was Catholic, you know, so I would go to Catholic masses with them. I think most of my family was a little bit more lenient on me being more strict in the fundamentalist Southern Baptist stuff. They're like, oh, well, you know, he's gonna participate in some of these like Catholic masses through school and whatnot, and he has to integrate. So I got to do Halloween um in a normal way, you know, as opposed to the more restrictive way that goes to my, you know, church go other churchgoers did. But one thing that I was not allowed to do, which I didn't realize how bizarre this was until much later. It's like, so that church was terrified of gay people, like terrified. And there were certain parts of DC you were not allowed to go to because there were too many gay people there. So, like, at one point I wanted to hang with some friends in DuPont Circle, and this was a huge issue. Like a lot of my first, you know, my church people and I was like, wait, why is this a huge issue? Oh, well, you know, it's devil tree, the gays are there and whatnot, and you know, it was like devil trade, but it was just so strange, and I was thinking, like, the entire area's off limits, like, what this is weird, like that was like about something that you know you just weren't supposed to or allowed to do now. I mean, I did it anyway, I just thought it stuck out with you, but like it was at the time I didn't understand, like, that is a very strange thing for any religious institution to do. Like, that's not normal to have like, oh, this district of DC is just totally off limits because of like this group. And looking back, like it's it really ties back to that first, the second half of that first definition you gave. You talk about control. I think for me, that's the number one way in which I identify a cult, is that there's some level of control that happens where you are allowed to do certain things, or oh well, if people speak up against the church, you can't interact with these people anymore, you know. Like that's a common one that I saw a lot as well. Like, and it's it really is meant to reinforce that control, and it makes a church really insular, which starts to uh, there's this without going into too much, I'm sure we'll talk about a lot of this, but a lot of the things people, religious institutions and really like fundamentalist, like more cult-leaning religious institutions enforce have nothing to do with their religious text. Yes, so like nothing at all. It's more so this like insular cultural norm they've created, you know, to maintain some level of power, but you know, it's not in the Bible. So, like, I remember one thing um with DuPont Sorger that came up was apparently like one church member met one openly gay person one time and said, Oh well, these people are deceptive. Like, I could tell this person wasn't a deceiver, and so they're all like that now. Wait, none of this makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

They slept with that person, didn't they? They they was like, anything this person says is a lie. That's what it sounds like.

SPEAKER_06 12:28

I'm about to say, is that sound like some DL shit with the Zelda?

SPEAKER_04 12:32

Yeah, well, there's a lot of that going on too in the church. There was a lot, which uh oh god, it's a whole other topic, too. That was an issue, but like it's just you know, and I remember bringing up this verse in that well, there's nothing in the Bible that says gay people are deceptive or lie, like that's not the thing that exists. You know, we critique many aspects of it, but that's not even in there. We say, oh, well, you know, like I think it is. Like, wait, no, it's not. Like, like we can look it up, like it's not there, privacy. This is just like you met one person you didn't like, and then now, like, you know, you've kind of run. Yeah, like it's but no, like that level of control and restriction, which often doesn't appear abnormal until you're out of it, and you look back and you think, damn, this was like some toxic shit. Yeah, yeah, that was my that's the thing that stands out for me.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

And what's crazy is I'm sure, you know, I I've all all of us are very intelligent, and I'm you know, no matter what age we were, there were certain things that stood out to us, certain things that were like, This doesn't seem right. And I'm sure like one of the and I just thought of another one. I'm not trying to like give myself too many different points, but I thought of one when I was younger, and it wasn't even from like an adult that told me, it was actually from another youth who I'm sure was chastised or something like that from an adult, which is like I was a very intelligent child, and I'm not tooting my own horn or bragging or anything like that. Like I used to read the dictionary and encyclopedia, I would like you know, all types of stuff, and I would always ask questions, you know, not questions in terms of like I'm saying this is wrong, and da da da. No, just I was inquisitive. I wanted to know, hey, what does this mean? Why are we doing this? So on and so forth. Like my nephew's varied the same, and that's anyway. Um so very inquisitive. And uh one of the other youth would always use this line from the Bible, uh, allegedly this line from the Bible, which is do not lean onto your own understanding. Now, I know because I've read the Bible, that was taken out of context. But anytime I would ask a question about what's going on, why is this said, why are we doing this? They would say, Hey, hey, hey, don't lean onto your own understanding. I'm like, I'm not. I'm asking the question so I don't use my own understanding. But that would be their answer. Don't lean onto you know what? You're you're asking too many questions. Don't lean onto your own under uh oh my god, I'm sorry. Anyway, uh Miss Skittles, did you have a moment um in time uh that you felt as though uh your experience or an experience or something from the church might have blockaded something that you wanted to do outside of the church or something with friends or other family?

SPEAKER_06 15:22

Um honestly when I think about it, I don't think so. I don't think I've ever had a moment where uh where I was where I was blocked from I've had like as far as like personal things, like like me internalizing things, going to church, um, and and how that you know made me grow as a person, I feel like yes, but as far as like another person from the church or a family member or something saying no you can't do this because the church says this, this, and this. Um, I don't I don't think that has ever happened to me.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_06 16:14

Yeah, like I I've been sitting over here thinking like was that move like I feel like things have been insinuated, but nobody was ever like no.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Okay, so yeah. So you never you could say you never felt outright, uh this is a very this is a deeper word, oppressed is probably a little bit dark, but you've never felt outright um quieted, let's use quieted.

SPEAKER_06 16:49

Um no, not outright, no.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Okay, and then uh Sayone, any experiences with the church that felt similar to any of the definitions that we use for cult?

SPEAKER_07 17:03

Um my church, I can say I didn't like my church. Um yeah, I didn't I didn't I never liked my church. I never really was a a person that was excited to go to church. Um I felt like I was dragged against my will. Um and there was I the church that I that I grew up in, um it was just kind of I don't know. I just didn't like I feel like people were being phony and I just didn't like the culture of church. Um yeah, I just didn't like the culture of church at all. Um I just I just think I just think all of it is a big game. Um I have to be careful, I say. But and and again, I am a very spiritual person. I I definitely uh God and I have conversations on a daily basis. I'm like, God, you know, you see you see what's going on here, right? You see this case you know what I'm saying? So I do not want it to the the narrative I'm putting out is not that I I do not have elements of Christianity in my background as I do. Um, but my element and my worship is vastly different from what the church promotes. And um I feel like in a general sense, church is if you don't come to church, you will not be saved. And that for me is a big issue. Um, or you need this institution to help guide you to the temple of salvation. If you don't come here every Sunday now, don't forget just having an offering. You will be there in a fiery pits of hell. I I I can't rock with that. Um and as we we as people, we often promote uh self-healing and and and trying to be in a place of of safety. And if you feel that you're in a place of discomfort, obviously that's not the fucking place for you to be. And I don't care what it is, I don't care if it's slapped and labeled as holy or not. Um, but yeah, that's that's a huge issue for me. Um and the church that I grew up in was no different for sure. Um, and it wasn't anything insidious. I just remember you just have a gut feeling like I don't like the teachings, or I just I just didn't, it just didn't gravitate towards me. And I will say there's one incident, it nothing ever nothing ever stopped me from being myself. And thankfully, my mom, we were Easter and Christmas churchgoers. Uh we went like twice a year. We were the ones where the whole entire um church was full for like Easter, but then they were gone the next, the next Saturday, Sunday. That was so we only went once a year at that. Um, and I'm actually happy with that because I could have my own way of finding what I think religion is instead of having uh institution tell me how I need to praise, what I need to do. And the church that I grew up in, the pastor said something that really put put me the fuck off, and I never went back at all. And this was during Obama, and when Obama was um, you know, really um advocating for for LGBTQ plus rights, and um the preacher at my church said, Yeah, you know, I don't care that Obama is African American. Anybody that preaches LGBTQ rights is not a man of God, and I just can't support it. And I'm just looking at this nigga like, are you fucking serious? And I'm looking at my mom because you know, this is a black church. This is a black church, this is a black church now, and for I've never seen someone bring politics, and again, church is politics, but I've never seen someone but like outrightly bring politics. Outrightly, again, I've never been accustomed to that. So um to to see that, you know, and someone saying I can't support a black man, I don't care if he's black or not, you can't be a black gay, you can't be a black president and support gay rights and be okay in my church. And I'm like, not a fucking problem. Mom, don't ever bring me back here ever again. And that was it. And that I was very for me, that was just so distasteful. I'm like, you know, you you are looking at one pinpoint thing and discrediting everything that this man has done or or or has helped, or or you know, but like it's just like why focus on that? And then to find out the person that he did go behind was Trump, yeah, collectively. And I think you probably know what I'm talking about. Um, but you might, but yeah, he was um he he definitely was a a pastor in the DMB and he advocated for Trump.

unknown 21:59

And I just

SPEAKER_07 22:00

Find that very, very interesting. Very, I don't know, very, very interesting. And I'm like, you are a man of God. Is that correct? So I don't know. It was just very interesting that how people was like, yes, yes, yes. And and we we we uh agree with him. And and I'm like, I can't have someone preach to me about something that's against my morals. So I'm like, if y'all want to stay here and be a coon, sorry, um, you can stay here, but I'm not gonna stay here. And I just left and I let my my mother and I, we never went back. But I think when it comes to cults, it happens insidiously. It wasn't like that in the very beginning. Um, you know, you can have someone that that marries you, like, oh, there was a good preacher. He married us, and you know, he he baptized my baby and all this shit. And so what ends up happening is that how a preacher can can help you. And it's usually it starts off how they can help you. And then it's like, okay, well, you see these blessings I gave you. What more can I do? What how how deeper can this rabbit hole go? And then they start to kind of have their their claws into you spiritually, and then I feel like anything that they can say at a certain given time, you will then be agreed to. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, that's that's correct. So I don't know. I'm go, I'm just I'm just kind of going off on this rant because it's really bothers me. Sorry, I'm done. I'm done. I had I've been on mute for a while, but I shouldn't.

SPEAKER_05 23:25

When I say, when I say I I'm like, uh what did this does Simon answer the question? Because I don't know if I answered the question or not. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_06 23:37

Yeah, and I'm like, okay, yeah, I got I want I want to comment. Yeah, oh, she's still going. Okay. I'm done. I'm done. I'm I'll be I'm gonna put on I'll be on the medicine. This is this is her her subject, okay?

SPEAKER_05 23:54

She's going in, okay?

SPEAKER_04 23:59

You know, it it infuriates me so much too when you're talking about like black pastors backing Trump behind, you know, LGBTQ's bust off. Even if you're the most like hyper conservative as far as like, oh, you you know, just hate gay people having anything, you know, and whatnot, and you just think that's so anti-biblical and that's your central thing, you then look at Trump and think he's an example of a biblical Christian. Like, you know, like the man who has probably violated new violates numerous biblical laws on a daily basis, like, you know, the serial adulterer. Like, this is the man who you get behind for family values. I just, oh my god, I just don't understand it. But no, like it's it's so wild though. You mentioned that political um power, because I happen to lie in my former church as well. And there's so much power in those types of relationships between a pastor and the congregation. Like, I almost compare it to if you think of like, you know, Beyonce fans.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Imagine if wait, what part of we don't want to get stung by the beehive?

SPEAKER_07 25:11

Go on, doctor, go on now. Give us a patient or whatever. Go on.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

I ain't saying you're wrong, I'm just saying Lord.

SPEAKER_04 25:18

But no, but like it's that type of love and engagement and that type of admiration. That's it. It is that now. Imagine, like, you know, a big Beyonce fan. Imagine if Beyonce could speak directly back and comfort them and hold them, and say, Oh, I'm here for you. Imagine how much power that would have. Yeah, that's the type of relationships that these many of these pastors have, where you know, they become this central figure for all this support, right? You know, and you know, and that's with like being able to see this person and touch this person, hold this person. And like, you can completely alter someone's life with that type of power. Easily. You know, you can completely change the way they think. So, you know, another definition you mentioned about like worshiping a central like person or something, a lot of these relationships are functionally worshiped, you know, between not necessarily not just like the personers and the god, but no, the person's and their pastor.

SPEAKER_03 26:17

Oh, yeah, the pastor, most most most definitely. The reverend everything.

SPEAKER_06 26:20

I'm glad you said that because um, because when when when um when you said the definition, that's immediately what I thought. I didn't think, you know, like the personer and God, it was the personer and the pastor. That was the first thought for that relationship. Um and it's wild to me because this, I mean, like you said, it's it's a cult like, you know, mentality. And I'm just like, we we we're looking at it. Well, a lot of people look at it like, oh, you know, the religion is about following the steps to to you know get to a certain place and then you will meet this god or whatever. But ultimately, I feel like like like you said, the the um the pastor, the reverend or whoever is is is the god, so to speak. That's the person that is leading these these uh these people. So it's just like and and this is something that I also um also noticed growing up, which is um, which is ultimately why I became um less well not religious and more spiritual.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

There we go.

SPEAKER_06 27:43

Because it was just like, what like what is happening? Am I only one seeing this? I felt like I was not subscribed to the same Kool-Aid as everybody when when we was uh when we was uh partaking in the the the grape juice or the wine.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Holy communion.

SPEAKER_06 28:02

The wine and I was just like, uh, am I the only one not sending the Kool-Aid? Because I just don't understand. Like y'all are literally like this is this is a human being who who claims to like be directly in contact with the person that you trying to get in contact. Like, why can't y'all just look? We we don't need you centered person to talk to God. We don't need your direction to talk to God, but nobody's thinking about that. They're just like, the pastor said, and the pastor this and the reverend that and and I'm just like, but what did God say? Did you talk to him? Did you talk to him? Because, like, I don't know, in my head, I'm just I'm just thinking about like if I'm allowed to talk to God, if I'm praying and I'm doing all these things, what why like why do I need you?

SPEAKER_03 29:04

There it is.

SPEAKER_06 29:05

Why do I need you, middleman? Middleman, and that that that definition, when you said it, immediately that that is the relationship I thought of the the pastor and the reverend and the people, not the people worshiping God. So it's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

I'm sorry, I kind of no no no no that was that was that's an important point, uh point important point to make is the initial premise, the purpose of church is supposed to be for fellowship. It's not like you can worship there, it's a place of worship, but the premise of a church house is for fellowship, it's for you to congregate with your fellow worshiper, your fellow man, um, because there are horrors and things out in the world, that's perfectly fine if that's what you're using it for. But when you then convert it, and I don't want to use this word, but for certain places, pervert it into this different location where it's not just for that purpose. Because um biblically, when uh um Jesus, Yeshua, Jesus, whoever you want to call him, when he was crucified, the allegedly the connection between God and man changed. It what we did not have to speak through a priest, through a preacher, through a reverend. At that point, God made himself available for all of us to be able to communicate with him, talk to him directly, just like Sion A said. She's able to talk to him on a daily basis. We're all enabled to do that if that's what you believe, if that's your God. And the purpose of the pastor is just for you to gain more clarity and gain more understanding, ask certain questions that you may have unclarity about. And that's all. That's the only reason. And the reason why you want to put tithes in, the tides are supposed to go to God and it's supposed to help the house of the Lord, but it's not supposed to pay for your pastor's beamer. That it's not supposed, it's not supposed to pay for the fuel in your in in your reverence jet.

SPEAKER_07 31:13

No, oh my gosh. Yeah, these mega churches I have a big issue with. And if you uh yeah, mega churches, um, there there should be no mega church. There shouldn't be. There's no reason for it. And if if it is a mega church, you be you better be housing people that are in need in this church. It better be a place of refuge. If it's big as a damn mansion, stadium stadium, yes, you can have you can have it as apartments or housing to help the needy. A lot of people that go to church, they are hurting spiritually, financially, physically. So a lot of places, a lot of people need church as a place of refuge. So if you build these huge institutions for what, all of it is is just showing off glitz and glamour. It's not really invoking the word of God that you that you preach. I will never forget. I'm not gonna say that, I'm not gonna say the pen, I really want to, but I'm not going to. Um, when Hurricane, I think was Hurricane Katrina.

SPEAKER_03 32:25

Probably.

SPEAKER_07 32:26

I think it was Hurricane Katrina and this well-known mega church leader. Um, people were banging on his doors to come inside because they were seeking refuge and he kept them closed.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Nah, he put chains on the door, like lean on me.

SPEAKER_07 32:42

So you know I thought about it. Yeah, he uh he definitely kept them damn locks locked. And again, people they are giving money to you on a weekly basis. Daily, every time they step foot in that church, or shit. We have people sending, sending it via checks in the mail.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

You know they have a system where it could uh like a like a uh what's it called? Um what's that thing called? When they take it out of your account, direct deposit, not direct deposit, deposit, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 33:13

Direct deposit.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Yeah, it comes directly. Yeah, it gets deducted from your account. Yeah, like automatic automatically, automatic auto pay. There it is. Yeah, it comes right out of your every Sunday, every Tuesday, every Friday, every Sabbath. It comes right out of your account. You ain't gotta do nothing.

SPEAKER_07 33:29

Auto pay. And again, this so like with tithe and offering, I do know that.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We're gonna go into tithes and offering after this. Because if you dive into that, that's gonna be a whole other conversation. Let's hold off on that.

SPEAKER_07 33:42

But yeah, so anyway, so um you're supposed they're supposed to help out the people that go to this church on a daily, weekly basis, and more often than not, how are they helping you to? Um, if all that you can give is what they already know, they just wanted to hear it from you. How are you helping them? Really? How are you making their life better? And of course, I know God says, you know, yes, God will help you, but you also have to help yourself. And if you're going and you're going to church to church for more guidance, how are they really guiding you? Because I think it's a trap. You still have the people coming every Sunday, and is their life really getting better? You know, like you promised. Come to church ever every Sunday, and I promise you, I promise you, life's gonna be better. I don't like that shit. I'm done. I'm I'll be on mute now. I'll be on mute.

SPEAKER_04 34:42

You know, with the mega church thing, that was one of the first things that really made me think something's very wrong with this system. Like, this seems really far from even if you truly believe in like biblical tenets, like that seems really far from any biblical like tenet or description or anything that looks like Christ-like instruction. And it, you know, it just makes me think that a lot of you know, a lot of institutions and a lot of you know religious institutions are really more about worshiping American norms and ideals as opposed to any specific scripture. Like the scripture is a secondary point, but you know, like in America, we worship wealth, you know, so having a massive, you know, wealthy like palace essentially, that makes sense in the idea of, you know, oh, this is something that people gravitate to. They see, like, you know, the um, what does it call it? The prosperity gospel. The idea that, oh, if you're rich, you know, it's because God favored you. So richer people are better people by nature. Like it's so opposite anything Jesus said, like, so opposite, but that's a prevailing idea, you know, and it's really because we see those people and we want to be those people, but it's all like, oh, we want to be this rich person with like the you know, the massive limo and you know, the who lives in a literal mansion and all this, but but that's also just so far from anything like religion has at its core, you know, or at least anything spirituality has at its core. Like, you know, that's not in any religious text that that's you know the way that we should live or aspire to. Like this is this is you know just American worship, essentially, or worship of uh you know American uh capitalist ideas, the American gods.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

The American gods. You about to say something, Miss Gibb?

SPEAKER_06 36:37

No, I'm I am I'm just in agreement, like everything we're right now is just like this is this is what's going on, okay? And I'm so glad. I mean, I already know that people know, um, but it's just good to hear, it's just good to hear it because I like I'm not somebody who um like religion and politics is is conversation that I do try to stay away from uh because because people feel strongly about their faith and their beliefs, and and I am I am not one to you know like go in there and be like, you know, what you believe in is trash. Like I'm I'm very respectful of you know what people believe in and you know how they wanna worship and you know how they do their thing. Yeah, um, because when I'm doing my thing, I'm gonna do my thing. So so so I don't I don't need nobody telling me how to do my thing and I'm gonna tell you how to do yours. Um so I I'm just very respectful in that way. Um and it because I know these kind these types of conversations can get really easy. However, it is also important to have these types of conversations because then you can we can talk like this, like we can we can get down to like the nitty-gritty of some of these situations and and just talk about it out loud. And sometimes it that's what it takes to have these conversations out loud and with and just hear everybody's thoughts, and and a lot of times you'll I I don't want to say change your mind, but you you might see things that you never saw before because you are one of these people who are are deeply ingrained in you know these different religious beliefs. Um so a lot of times, you know, it it takes having a conversation to be like, huh, like you have like a like you like weird you right, you are right, because when I when uh like the doctor said when I when I first started seeing like mega churches pop up, it was just it was just weird to me because I'm like are are we are we creating a place of worship or are we running a big because because to me all of this sounds like business? Um at no point do I when I when I see like mega churches, I'm like, oh you know, you know, this person is is dedicated to spreading the word and and like you know like it's just this ultimate thing um to just to to get the word out there, like this is what this person believes. No, the first thing I see is money, uh money, television, fan, clout, uh like all of those things pop into my head when I think mega church or when I see it. And then half the time with the stuff that they're preaching, half the time they ain't preaching nothing. I like I mean, I've I've literally like listened to some of the stuff. Sometimes they just it's just like repeating in circles. I'm like, where are the scriptures? Where like you know, where are the where is the references to uh to the the the book that you are supposed to be teaching people about? Um where's that at? Because I mean, yeah, it is it's one thing to um to like compare like real life to to a scripture, um, but if you're just talking about real life things all the time, or like like environment like things that happen to people in real life and then and then be like pray about it, like huh? That that makes sense to me, like whatsoever. You said like uh for example, um, you know, being being rich, it means you're you know, you you've been highly favored by God. Like, what? No, how would like it it just doesn't make any sense to me? Like, oh, you know, uh, I'm poor, I don't have any money. I'm you know, I'm um I'm struggling to pay my bills. This is happening with you know my home and my kids and the pandemic and blah blah blah. And and your and your your advice to them is pray on it. Like that's what we're telling people to do. Pray on it.

SPEAKER_09 41:23

That's what we're doing.

SPEAKER_04 41:24

Thoughts and prayers.

SPEAKER_06 41:26

Man, if thoughts and prayers could keep lights on.

SPEAKER_07 41:35

And you go back to it's a very good point that Miss Skittles is making. I was having a hard time trying to figure out what toxic positivity was until I found out it's the fucking Damn. No, seriously, like you're having someone come to you. Imagine you want to sit down and talk to your spouse or talk to your teacher about what you're going through, or even a friend. Like, wow, you know, I'm really going through it, and and I just don't know what to do, and and so much is going on, and and you know, and no one can really understand. And all you say, like, hmm, just pray on it, you'd be aye. Like, what? Like, you literally just demeaned what they're going through. You devalued what they're going through. You didn't hear anything that they're going through. You just gave a stamp, let me let me put a stamp on pray on it.

SPEAKER_06 42:29

God only gives you what you can end, you'll be okay. That part. If I had a dollar, if I had a dollar for it.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

Don't try. I just heard it on TV earlier today. Don't pray with me on that statement.

SPEAKER_06 42:42

Um my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

Because I want to go a little bit back from where um uh Sayone and the doctor were talking about um uh the church support of Trump, right? And uh, I'll explain why I want to tie that back into what we were just talking about. So part of the reason why a lot of churches, uh black churches, I'm specifically gonna talk about those, support not just Trump, let's say, but we'll just talk about Republicans in general, is tying back into what Miss Skittle said about the how they're operating their church like a business. There are a bunch of laws and a bunch of regulations, uh uh legislations that were put in or that were about to be put into power and that were put into power when Trump came into power that benefited business owners. I actually had a conversation right before Trump, actually, I think within Trump's first year, um, with and I wasn't even in the conversation, I was just standing there, and they these three not millionaires, but they were they were in the high six figures, were having a conversation with one another, and they were like, Yep, I'm about to, I'm definitely gonna vote for Trump in the second term, and this, that, and the third. And I made sure I didn't make eye contact with them because they wasn't gonna get that from me, but they were just talking. About how beneficial it is for both their businesses and for their churches for Trump to be in power because of how much money they will make, as well as how their money will be secured in bank accounts, in different stocks, in different uh investments and things of that nature. So when you circle, you pan back to the church. A lot of the reason, and and let's not let's not just kid ourselves. There are churches that specifically support Republicans, not just Trump, but Republicans in general, because of those values, those uh quote unquote ancestral values. No abortion, uh um, what is it, no abortion, uh LGBTQ, um it's like two more. It's no abortion, LGBTQ. I can't remember the other two right now, but there's like four main principles that uh most quote unquote Christian churches and everybody who falls under that umbrella will always stand for, and they always say Republicans stand on those principles, which is why no matter who the candidate is, it can be Jeffrey Dama, they will stand on the Republican faith, and they will say Republicans are for this, and that's why we won't vote for the other person. And the more, I mean, in recent years, and let's just talk about, you know, uh uh uh uh Obama and Biden, even Clinton, you know, yeah, uh, how you know they were more leaning towards LGBTQ rights, they were more leaning towards uh pro-choice, they were more leaning towards you make your own decisions, you choose what you want to do, you be the type of person that you want to be. And most black Christian churches and most Republican faith leaders will specifically say, Oh, that's liberal talk. Then they'll sometimes say this is commie talk, it's all the talk we not, and how you specific, and I'm not trying to get political because that's why I say don't do political stuff on this on this podcast, but that's how a lot of them are talking, and when it goes against their beliefs, it goes against their congregation's beliefs, and when it goes against their congregation beliefs, it goes against their community beliefs, and when it goes against the community beliefs, it goes against their beliefs, their core beliefs, their ancestral beliefs. And we can go into that if we want to, but you know when that's say ancestral who I'm talking about. I'm not talking about us. Uh because of that, uh, because of that, certain choices are made, and that's that's on the let's let's let's just say that's on, and I put up air quotes, y'all. Uh that's on the religious level. But then when we talk about the back end, we're talking about why these churches are how these churches are operating, how they're maintaining, when they're collecting the tithes and offerings, and they're using that money for bills, quote unquote bills and things of that nature. How can they secure that money? Well, with certain people in power, they can easily secure their money as 501c3s, as uh nonprofit organizations, as religious belief organizations, as a business behind a 501c3. Imagine how easy it is to be a business and a nonprofit organization and be the business that chair uh that uh pours your charity money into the nonprofit, and then the nonprofit gets sponsored by the business. So you're paying yourself and your money just goes cyclical. Plus, you get money back from the uh IRS because of your, I'm not going into this conversation, y'all. I'm going business. I'm sorry. That's not what I meant to do. But it's very easy. That circle goes around and around and around and around. Um now I said all of that to then lead back into the point about how a lot of us, if you're paying attention, let's say if you're reading your Bible, uh, there's a certain percentage of your tithes and offerings. No, no, no, I said it's wrong. There's a certain percentage of your income that's supposed to go into your tithes and offerings. Well, into your tithes, not your offerings. Your tithes are supposed to be how much percent? Like 10%, right? I believe that's what it is. 10%. A lot of people don't know because they, you know, for years now we've just been saying tithes and offerings. You know, we're like, oh, it's the same thing. No, no, no, no. Your tithes are supposed to be 10% of your income. Your offerings is whatever you give to the church. It's not supposed to be the same, and it can be more. There are a lot of churches that are saying your tithes and offerings is 30%.

SPEAKER_07 48:35

Since what?

SPEAKER_01 48:36

Oh, for a very long time. Wow. Like you're you're you're you're you're you're giving more at church than you're tipping your waiter. I'm just saying. Um and and the service ain't the same. So when you're when you're getting tips. When you're giving when people are giving that much to the church of their income, and uh I believe it was Sion A that gave the point about we're talking about poor, rich, middle class, anybody. So you're making a hundred thousand dollars, they're getting thirty thousand dollars. You making thirty thousand dollars, they're getting three thousand dollars, they getting or more. And when thirty thousand dollars is all you making, and you got five kids, and you live in Southeast DC, no disrespect to Southeast, I promise you. Um, but you live in Southeast DC and you have a bunch of bills to pay, you have to pay for school supplies, you have to pay for food, you have to pay for all of these different things. Yeah, you're still giving 10% or more, 30% of how much you make to the church every single year, you're not gonna survive. And the expectation, like Sayo may say, is that okay, now I need to come to the place that's supposed to be helping me out. Now, there are, don't get me wrong, there are churches, black churches, that are providing food every weekend. They're providing a soup kitchen for people to eat, whether they're homeless or not. They're providing a a uh uh um uh evangelism, where uh evangelisting, sorry, where the the members of the church go out to the different houses and they speak words of encouragement and they pray over the different families and they do all these different things to encourage their communities. But those are normally the churches that are not mega churches, they're not super churches, they're they're not big churches, and I'm going down the tier list. The the bigger your churches, the less you have time to evangelize. Coincidentally, you would you would think once you get that big, now you have uh enough money to pay somebody a salary to go out and go speak to the people. You can't do that. And that's where the con for me, that's where the confusing part is. It's the larger you grow, why all of a sudden are you not doing the things you're supposed to be doing for the community? Now it's like you're paying attention to the to the state, which is where you get political. I'm like, I thought we were separating church and state.

SPEAKER_07 50:54

There isn't a separation. I mean, if you if you really want to go down that route, if you want to be about, if you want to go to history, church, religion had more power than the damn state. Always has, always has, always will. So when people say there's a separation of church and state, it's a fucking lie. Because church and state is the same damn thing. The churches had more power than the kings and queens. They were the ones who told Christopher Columbus's ass to come back from, I think he was in Barbados, not the US. Barbados from from raping and pillaging the indigenous people. It was the churches that said, bring your fucking ass back. Not the king, the church. So it's the church that has power.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

Oh, always has. If you look at any anime we watch it now, most of the time it's either the Pope, the the priest, the the church, whatever church, whatever faith they they made up in those anime, it's always the church that's telling the king. Oh, actually, it's always the the the head pope or priest that's geppettoing the king in the background. You're like, oh, the king is the evil one, and all of a sudden.

SPEAKER_04 52:02

And there's no better sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_06 52:05

I was about to say, but that's hit that's history, whether it's you know, anime or real life. In history, that that's just the way it's been. Like, like we we've literally had kings and or queens get married to certain houses and and and and you know, for for religious purposes. Oh, we need we need the Catholics on our side. So we don't have to marry uh Queen Elizabeth St. Mary, whoever. Because we need this particular church on our side for whatever, you know, whatever's next in that that ruling. So yeah, this this is the uh separation. Where?

SPEAKER_09 52:54

Since when?

SPEAKER_04 52:56

Right and there's no better symbol for that than the fact that in God we trust is still on our money. On the dollar that's the perfect metaphor for like, no, the whole separation church is date, it's all like bullshit. Like it's it is, it is.

SPEAKER_06 53:13

Um I like this because I ain't never thought about that, and you know what? You right the money. Oh shit. Look, now I need to find a dollar, I'm about to go listen.

SPEAKER_07 53:35

Like, if if if one wants to really educate themselves on why this abortion ban is such an issue, they have to go back in history and figure out why birth control was first made. Birth control is not made for white women. Birth control originally was made for I think um for the Latin American community or the um Caribbean community, like I want to say Dominican Republic, remember, but um, yeah, so the when it came to birth control, they basically sterilized an entire community. They sterilized an entire community just trying to quote unquote make birth control. They they they preached, women, don't you want to take your power back? You don't want to just keep having babies, you know, and not want to have your own power on when you want to have children. And so the person who I forgot the name, but the person who actually created birth control, she was also in eugenics, and she um she actually had some dealings with the scientists that were dealing with like experimentation um with like the holocaust during the Holocaust. She was in kapots with them, but unfortunately, with birth control, they had sterilized an entire community of women, and this is like the baby boomer generation. I want to say it's the 50s and 60s, and till this day, they don't even know what they were given. I want to say it's the Dominican Republic or Puerto Rico, I think it's the Dominican Republic, I can't remember. I'll I'll fact check that. But it's somewhere in the islands, and um, you know, women like we don't know what we took. All they said is that they want us to, you know, take our life back and and say, you know, and we we want to choose and we want to have children. And really was they thought that there were too many ethnic people that are having fucking kids, and they wanted them, they wanted them to be controlled, population control. So when they end up finding out that is white women doing it too, white women are population control. No, no, no, no, they don't want that. That's an issue. And now you have all these issues about abortion. No, it's illegal, we shouldn't have why the fuck do the people care? It's not it's not about it's not about religion, it's really more so about the fear of Caucasian people, the population is decreasing, they don't want, they don't want that control. They wanted ethnic non-white people to control the population, not white people, and so when they're gonna say shit when the white woman started fucking with the black guys, oh lord.

SPEAKER_03 56:00

So I mean the whole plan fell apart.

SPEAKER_07 56:02

Yeah, people should really look in like who where did contraception start? You have to go back. Why was contraception made? I mean, don't get me wrong, uh, I love my UD. I love it, right? But every single medical advancement always has a dark side, always has human experimentation, always to get to where it is now. And contraception is a huge part of it, and it had to do with population control in the non-white community. And now when white people started to use it, they're like, no, that's not what we want. That's again, America was not made for us. America was never for non-white people. We were brought over here as slaves, and we built this, we built here. Um, you know, again, this originally is for the indigenous people that are already here. Um, but the like even to this day, the racism, everything that we're going through, all the legislation, it never was for us. Even the the constitution was made for free people, not slaves. Black people were not a part of the constitution. So I think like, you know, people really have to understand this country as a whole, that it never really was for us to begin with. We can't be surprised that generation after generation we're still dealing with the same shit from back then. I'm gonna stop because I have a whole entire monologue to go through. I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna go back on you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 57:37

But that's that's a that's a key point though. Um, but go ahead, Doctor, I'll say it afterwards.

SPEAKER_04 57:42

Yeah, no, I mean it makes me think too, you know, we talk about um how this plays out in the church, especially with you know women's rights and part of the resistance to abortion and whatnot. Like a lot of churches, this is something I saw in, you know, my former super fundamentalist church. They have an idea of a woman's place that is very much built in like the 1930s and whatnot. And you know, and this is a time like I think it was only like 1970s or 1980s that a woman could get a bank account without being married to a man, which it seems insane that it's like that recent, but like they have this idea where, oh, you know, a woman has to be the homemaker and whatnot, and you know, it has to, you know, women have to stay in the home and all this stuff, and you know, you can't work, you can't do this, you can't do that. And one of the you know, the other things, it isn't like you know, they don't want like white women in particular, you know, to lower the birth rate, which is a huge thing in the country. And there's this whole alt-right movement around like, oh, white women need to have more babies, which is like it's it's kind of a mess. But yeah, it's also this idea that um, you know, abortion or not having a child means that you have more freedom to pursue a path in your life that otherwise you might not have. You know, and so you might not have to be necessarily as tied down at home to you know a partner who beats you, let's say, you know, because oh, you're staying for the kids. Like, no, like you're able to, you know, get out of that situation. And that's terrifying for people, you know. It really is. And the church grapples with that a lot because they always talk about, like, oh, you know, we just you know, we want these young kids to be like our generation, where you know, we all stayed together and made it and whatnot, but yeah, you stayed together because yeah, you were getting beat, but you couldn't, you literally couldn't get divorced, you weren't allowed to, like, that wasn't a thing you could do. So you were miserable like you're for 80% of your marriage. Like that's not that's not the type of marriage to aspire to by any means. But you know, the church really had or many churches have not really updated when it comes to, you know, and really reckon with that, to be honest, because there's also a significant lack of self-reflection when it comes to that, just as an institution.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:03

No, no, no, 100%. Uh most most churches, as I said before, even and I'll stick to black churches at the moment, most black churches are just following whatever principles are handed down from previous generations and traditions. They may try to spin new narratives on it to make it cool, hip, and you know, crazy sexy cool for the next generation, but in real reac in reality, they're just copying it and mimicking it to you know follow the same principles. Um, I remember one time uh when I was younger, I was I was looking at a couple of churches, and a lot of them had a extremely like maybe two, extremely low millennial rate, like everybody was a boomer or older. And I was like, you can tell the direction of a church, or you can tell the message within a church based off of the age groups that are still within it. If by the time you get to 2010, 2015, most of your millennials are gone, and all you got is like people's grandbabies because you they they visit in for the weekend, either that church is gonna die out really soon, I hate to say it that way, or it's it's it's still teaching the same principles that the same principles that look at people's not beliefs, but look at people's identities incorrectly. And I think that's where the difference is, kind of going uh basing off of what you said, the doctor, about how you know women's rights and women's allowances only turned around within the last 30, 40 years. And now that we're slowly moving, not slowly, now that we're in a age and a generation where we're not just talking about women's rights, we're talking about black people's rights, we're talking about people of color's rights, we're talking about LGBTQ rights, we're talking about, you know, the rights of each and every person, no matter the age, no matter the belief, no matter the uh uh orientation or gender. Now that we're talking about all of these things, the church is completely baffled. They really don't know what to do. That's why you have certain churches where a person gets up on the pulpit and they're like, you know, let's respect our LGBTQ brothers and then, or brothers and sisters, I don't know why I said brothers, uh, let's say people, and part of the church will leave. That's why we'll have certain churches where somebody's up front and they're like, oh, you know, no abortion, and then you'll see their their their ties and offerings skyrocket. It it they're they're tugging on people's heartstrings, but the sad part of that is they're not that they're doing it for the wrong reasons, they're doing it for their right reasons. And those right reasons are how they are controlling in Mary and netting what they need to survive as an institution. But the places that are trying to do what a church is supposed to do, which is bring in a congregation and help said congregation and heal said congregation and fellowship with said congregation, are the ones that are losing members, sadly.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:22

You're about to say something, Doctor?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:24

Yeah, you know, it's it makes me think. Um so one of the biggest barriers I see when it comes to churches, you know, that may need to change um and have not successfully changed, because some churches, many churches have changed and updated and become, you know, um more serving to their community and whatnot and become more inclusive and all of that. But for a lot that haven't, a lot of it comes down or really relates to this idea of religion as identity, where churches create this strong sense of identity. We're like, oh, you're one of us, you're one of our members, like you're a part of this, this is you, and identity can be empowering for people, which is why it's so attractive. But once something becomes your identity, it becomes super difficult to critique or self-reflect on. Because now any criticism or any flaw that is a part of this institution, that feels like a flaw about you as a person, and that's the link that is kind of happening with people. So it's so hard to change anything because you know, the minute you say, like, oh well, I want to question this, then oh well, why are you attacking the church? You know, why are you like, you know, your faith is wavering? Like, that's another way that that gets phrased. Like, and that happens all the time. So, like, and it's fine to have identities around, you know, really whatever you want as long as it's not harming others, but you do have to be able to be self-reflective about it and understand when and where your identity may be becoming harmful or what elements of it may be harmful to others or harmful to you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:05

And then I I know we were talking about the uh ties and offerings, and I know I stopped Sion A before about kind of diving into that, but I wanted to make sure we we spoke on that before we you know wrapped up because you know, ties and offerings and financing the church, in and of itself, most people don't know that churches, especially churches that are registered, um, get money from the state automatically. Like, they don't need our money technically, as long as they're another separation if the if they're registered, they can get money from the state as a 501c3, as a non profit organization, as a religious entity, as long as they can prove that they have. Members and they can prove that they are doing the things that they said that they were going to do when they registered as a nonprofit religious organization. So the tithes and offerings andor offerings are purely donations to the church, which is why they are taxable. Everybody's done their taxes and they say donations and charities, and you can put your church in. That's why that their tithes and offerings aren't revenue. Nah, nah, why did you do this? Why did you do this? Why did you feel like this is appropriate? I'm sorry. I know you can't see what I'm talking about. Sayone once again has come in here looking like a portrait of we'll call her Mona Lisa. How dare you? Disrespectful. What was that? Nah, I can't remember what I was saying. Crap. Oh.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:55

Ties and offerings.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:56

Thank you. So that's why you can you can claim it as a donation, like, like Goodwill. You know, if you donate clothes or electronics to Goodwill, you can write it off on your taxes. That's why you can write off your ties and offerings to churches, to your church, on your on your taxes, because they're donations. And they're purely, especially to a 501c3, they're how the business is supposed to run. So when the church puts in their taxes and they say, okay, all of these donations that are coming from the year are paying for uh maintenance, they're paying for uh the lights, the bills, they're paying for uh uh certain people's salary, because you know, you have people working in the church office and this person and that person. So all that all that is is accounted for. So when you put all of that information in, then you have you know the big business I was talking about in the background that's paying for this stuff too. Now this stuff is right, all of this uh money is can be written off, and now they don't have to pay anything back because all they're saying is all of the stuff from all of our members, our congregation, from all the businesses who sponsor us and things of that nature, our donations that we get, all of the stuff is paying for someone and paying at someone, and especially if they people have people working in the office, especially older people who give retirement checks. You know, I'm getting too far into it. I'm I'm telling people how to cheat the system. Let me calm down. Anywho, what I wanted to say was in terms of tithes and offering, the the premise behind it is supposed to be the goodwill of how to put money into the house, the house being the church, so that the members and the congregation can benefit from it. It's the same thing as putting uh money into the pot or the kitty. When you put money into the uh let me say it a different way. Let's say you you and your spouse have a joint bank account, let's do it like that. The purpose of putting money into a joint bank account is for the entire household, whether it's you and your spouse, you, your spouse, your kids, you, your spouse, your dog, whatever. Cat, you know, people, I ain't trying to be rude. Pig, guinea pig, whatever. Anyway, whatever goes into the joint account is supposed to be for the house. Which means anything that the house does gets paid for out of the kitty. Same thing with the church. At least that's how it was supposed to be. Well, that's how it was taught to us. Let me not say how it's supposed to be, because how it's supposed to be is how it's happened. But how it was taught to us was that everything that goes into that kitty, anything that's donated is supposed to go to the house. But as we all can see, plainly and obviously, that money is not just going to the house. Because the last time I checked, a lot of churches, a lot of people who are going to these churches are not getting anything back out of their church. Other than the word on Sunday and the ability to participate in choir practice on Tuesday or Wednesday. Unless they get kicked out of choir. And then, you know, if you tone deaf, ain't that we can do for you, sisters of birthday. Um, but the problem is when you put that much money into a place, because you're like, I'm talking thousands, millions of dollars. Like, if you've if you've ever seen the bottom line for a church institution, you you'll be staggered. Because you're like, you'll be like, where did the money go? Where? Because it doesn't make any sense. So how what how do you feel? And this is where my question is going. I was just, you know, kind of building it up. How do you feel about the sheer numbers, dollar, monetary numbers that go into a church on a daily, weekly, monthly basis? And we're talking hundreds of thousands, almost millions of dollars, depending on the church and the location that it's in. How do you feel about the amount that's going in and uh compared to the amount that's coming out? And we'll start with, well, we know cyon A is gonna go. So we'll start with Miss Skittles and we'll end with Cyon A. Is that okay, sirene? I won't just put you out. Is that poop?

SPEAKER_06 1:10:55

Okay, so wait, wait, wait, wait, what was the question again?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:59

How do you feel? How do you feel about the sheer amount of money currency that is going into the church compared to the amount that is obviously not coming out?

SPEAKER_06 1:11:15

It's a scammers, a scammer things. It's truly scammer things. Um I I and it's upsetting because this is a this is a institution that's supposed to care about the community, supposed to give give back to the people, um the people who are who are putting into it, who are pouring themselves into it. Um, especially um you mentioned older people, um, especially older people, because they're they have this, you know, they have this strong uh belief system. Uh that you know, the younger generations, we're we're a little flexible with how, but the older, older people, you know, they stick by, you know, they they stick by their traditions and the stuff that they they grew up doing. So these these people go to church and they put their tithes and offerings in, and sometimes it's their last. Sometimes they're it's their last because they're again going back to that cult-like mentality, they they believe, you know, I'm I'm giving, I'm giving my my all. I'm giving the last of me, and in return, uh the preacher or or God or somebody or something, some entity is going to be looking out for me uh when I least expect it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:00

I'm sorry, that was a that that statement was a trigger. I had to say that real quick. That was a trigger because I I I I recall hundreds of times where somebody will get up on the pulpit and say, Can't we just give our last? Can't we give our our all? I'm like, Yeah, won't some people not make rent? Won't some people lose? Like, like I what do you mean your last? Like, help me understand. Oh, I'm sorry, I can't lean on my own understanding.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:29

And that's the part that I say that that's why I say it's so disheartening, it's so disappointing to to have, you know, uh a preacher or you know, the the the church um be up there with you know asking these people for this, their last, they're all, and and and what are they doing at the end of the day? Like this is this money is going into their pockets and and their backdoor business moves and and whatever the hell the hell else.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:02

I mean, and let's not talk about the building fund.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:14

I just I just cannot imagine uh like I can't imagine taking advantage of people in that way, and and then not it's not just one person, it's it's a congregation of people, and the larger your church is the more money you are making off of people who are literally sometimes struggling to make ends meet. Um but because they believe in God and they believe in you and they believe in this church, they are given their last dollar. Um and and and what are you doing? What are you doing with it? Like you over there, look, you gotta hold. I got we got we got Suji over here, whole tax uh expert telling us what you doing over here, okay? You you you Ponzi scheme. The Ponzi scheme washing your own money and shit.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:27

No, they're baptizing their own money. Don't be rude. They're baptizing it.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:30

Oh, I'm sorry, yes. My bad. But yeah, it just um it doesn't it doesn't it's all it's all business to me. It's all it's all business and and the people who are who are um unfortunately being taken advantage of are the people who who are living in this cult-like structure, but a cult-like structure disguised as faith.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:06

And we all have to cry about that.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:10

Yeah, I you know, 100% agree. And one of the things that it just makes me think of, especially seeing some of the back end of that, you know, with my previous church and that's you know, my family essentially being most of the head people in that church, is that it's not treated like a business legally in the same way other businesses are treated, but it is very clearly a business, you know, and so there are all these loopholes that you can get away with that normally would be much harder to so I think as an analogy, like if I'm writing a grant for NIH, you know, and I want to get money from them, I have to detail very specifically what each dollar is going to. So, oh, this is going to my research incentives, this is going to my transportation, you know, coverage, it's going to that and that. And you have so much more flexibility to put the money wherever you want, you know, when it comes to running through the church. How you want to run the building fund? The building fund is whatever you want it to be. It can be anything. Like, you know, it can, there's no real, there's really just no real regulation when it comes to that. And so it's just ripe for exploitation. And that's what we see a lot of happening in finances. And you know, and then I guess another research analogy. When I think of, you know, how in research we always have to, we're taught about, oh, not exploiting vulnerable populations, and these are relationships where, you know, you can't do this or you can't do that. No institutional review board that approves research would ever approve in a study getting money from people the way that many churches get money from people. None of them would. They would say, this is straight up unethical. These are people who you have this deep, you know, one-sided parasocial relationship with that is intense. You know, like they cannot willingly consent to giving you this. Like it is inherent exploitation, you know, and yet that happens all the time. I mean, it's just when we have that much power over people, of course they're going to give, like a lot of them are gonna give you their last dollar and not make rent. You know, like that's a real thing that happens, and that's I mean, it's awful. And you know, I get that churches, you know, have to be able to run, but I mean, there are there needs to be a much more equitable, fair, and transparent process to that, and one that is regulated in a very clear way, because right now there's just too much wiggle room, and because of that, you do get just really a lot of this gross manipulation that happens, just truly gross, which you know, it's and ironically, it's probably one of the like least Christ-like ways to engage with people, you know, like straight up. But I don't know. That's a staple of what we see.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:02

All right, we have come to the time.

SPEAKER_09 1:19:10

I'm ready. Don't do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:12

I haven't just let you have it. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:16

Clear thought process, my clear point. There was a documentary with Lisa Lane, and she was documenting prostitution around B Ponser. And she wanted to touch base on how do how are these out of these children uh picked up and in get into the prostitution, prostitution world? Like how does it happen? And she said it starts with manipulation. A lot of times these children come from homes that are either broken or um they don't feel safe, they are mentally going through a lot, and so they need something to get some type of reassurance. Um, maybe their parents or their fathers went through it, but they needed some some guidance, and that's where the pimp comes along. And the pimp promises riches and success and comfort and safety. And if you come to me, I will give you everything and more. I I promise that you will be successful as long as you follow me. And there's no difference to me with that in church, a lot of churches, in the fact that you exploit the vulnerable, you exploit people that are in need in every capacity, and you see that and you predatorize that and profit off of it. And where is the gain? Where is the gain versus what you're actually getting? And you are getting followers, you're getting devotion and undying devotion, and you're getting money. And at the end of the day, I was gonna say it's capitalism, but it's not, it's it's you're you're pimping, you're pimping people, and that's exactly what it is. That's the reason why I don't go to church, and again, I I have my own lake to worship, but I refuse to let anyone who's not fucking godly to tell me how to be a Christian or to tell me how I should worship, or that I need to memorize the Bible to be a true Christian. No, the people who memorize the Bible are still ones that are committing the most heinous crimes.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:31

True. And use the Bible to justify, use the Bible to justify it.

SPEAKER_07 1:21:36

And I want to go back to Trump and I want to make it make a clear distinction about politics. I don't care what political party you affiliate with, there is bad and good with each. Very bad and very good with each. There have been people that I didn't like on both sides of the spectrum. But with that being said, I have an issue with black Christians and Trump. And this is someone this is literally the antichrist, so to speak. If you go into the Bible on what you think the antichrist is, Trump is the vision of antichrist, and I think it is very interesting. I'm not calling him the antichrist, but I'm just I I love how people a lot of people thought Obama was the Antichrist because they thought that. And why did they think so, Succi? Because somebody that was charismatic, yep, and someone that had a lot of influence.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:34

Yep, which Trump has significantly more than Obama.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:38

Okay, and then and and again, these were black people saying these are people that I know. Yeah, no, no, no. So now you're looking at Trump. Trump was someone who said, I can be, I can shoot somebody in the street and I can walk away free, and I'm fine. And uh figuratively, that has been very true, more often than not. And I think the issue is that the church on both sides will still support him and then preach this in the church and use the power that they have against these vulnerable people, not only with their money, but use them as a mom. 100% so um church is where the heart is, not an institution. And people really need to remember that, and don't ever let anyone, doesn't matter if it's your family, because they're they're usually the worst ones, dictate you on how you should worship or what it means for you to be a Christian. Um, because usually the people that do that are the ones that ain't shit the most. So yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:51

I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments. Um, I think it's very important that people uh understand. No, let me rephrase. I I wholeheartedly believe that people should take understanding into their own hands. Um as a person who's been whose understanding has been challenged for a very long time. Um being able to spot the job, if you will, is so important, not just religiously, but across the board. What no matter who you're working with, no matter who you're interacting with, if you can't spot the job, you're gonna get jobbed. You're gonna get robbed, you're gonna get it doesn't even kill, but you know, in this particular situation, you're gonna get you're gonna become a mark. And with cults, uh going back to the original premise, um, and like I said, I did a lot of, you know, I've read a lot of articles, a lot of research on it. Um with cults, a lot of the people who have who grew up in cults and either made it out or the cult the the dissolved and they were lost, a lot of them had a few uh quite a few things in common. And one of those main things that they had in common was while they were a part of the cults, while they were part of a cult, is that they had to establish a certain level of uh not behavior, um, obedience to what's going on within the cult. You could not share what's happening inside the cult with people outside of the cult. Once you get in, you can't question what's happening inside of the cult. While you're inside of the cult, you have to maintain a certain behavior. Almost uh, what's the name of that movie that came out a long time ago? Pleasantville? Yeah, like a pleasantville type of vibe. Everybody is smiling. Uh uh. There is no evil within Boss Singh Sei. Same concept. Actually, Boss Singh Sei is a perfect example. It's there they're there there you have to listen to what the curator is saying. Because the curator is one of the, you know, the um, what do they call them? Not the pastor, not the reverend, but the what's that board of that board of people that that sits right under the pastor? Is that what they call it?

SPEAKER_07 1:26:11

Um not the elders. The elders?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:14

We can go with elders. Elders is another way of it, but there's sometimes younger people who are on that on that staff. But, you know, when the pastor is busy or the reverend's busy, there's this team of people that you have to interact with, and those people are the ones that, you know, when you ask questions, they're like, oh, there's no there's no evil here. There's there's no dissension. Don't lead them to your own understanding. Everything is fine, everything is peaceful, everything is calm. Just pray, and the Lord will help you in every and every way that you need. You will be okay because we will be okay. Don't forget to pay your tithes and offerings. See you next Sunday. Felt a little cringy, didn't it? That was terrifying.

SPEAKER_07 1:27:00

It was like a Jordan Peel movie. I was like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:05

I promise I didn't practice that. Um yes, so it's it's it's those types of things that people encounter when they're in when they're inside of a cult, but not just inside of a cult, when they're inside of a cult-like environment, a cult-like and a cult-like structure. And, you know, not saying you need to question everything that's happening inside your church, although you should, not saying that you should, you know, uh uh um tell the pastor that he's wrong and he's doing it wrong. No, it's not your business. It's his business. Let him run his business the way you want to. But just like a business has the right to serve you or not to serve you, you also have the right to not enter the business. If you don't believe in what the business is serving up, you can leave. If you don't like the way it tastes, you can roll out. You don't do you like people always say, oh, I'm going to this restaurant. Did you do any research on it? Or did you just see it on TikTok and it looked nice? Do some research on the places where you're going to go visit. Do some research on the places that you're currently frequenting. It's the same thing as if you're paying a subscription to Netflix. If you are not watching 90% of the stuff on Netflix, why are you paying the subscription to Netflix? Turn it off. Do something else. If you're not enjoying your subscription service, whatever it is, whether sending you clothes or shoes or whatever, if you're not enjoying it, you turn it off, don't you?

SPEAKER_09 1:28:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:35

If you're not getting what you want, what you need from your church, from your congregation, from the house of the Lord, turn it off. Go someplace else. Do some research. Figure out if it's where you actually need to be. And that's my two cents. But anyway, uh, we need to wrap up this episode. We're we're we're gonna visit this again. Uh, trust me, we will. Uh, but I do I do want to thank our panelists for being on this episode today. Uh, each of you, uh, whether your experience was one-to-one direct, or whether it's uh seeing somebody else's experience, uh, I believe it's it has been very valuable in getting this this uh this topic uh uh recorded today. Um, want to give each of our panelists the opportunity to tell the uh listeners where they can be reached. Now be careful because of the sensitivity of this episode and the topic that we have talked about. You open yourself up for uh religious leaders to come and contact you. So tell them where you want them to reach you, just in case you don't want them to reach you. And I'll go ahead and start with the doctor.

unknown 1:29:37

Yikes.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:40

Damn, I'm nervous now. Nah, I'll be okay. You'd be surprised how much um hate mail I get for like controversial research around race. This is nothing. Um Rod R T on Facebook.

unknown 1:29:54

All right.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:55

Okay, Facebook messenger. Uh Ms. Skittles.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:59

Uh Ms. Skittles uh T-R underscore cosplay on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and then on Twitter, it's M-I-Z Skittles 2K Zag.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:14

Alright. Sio Ne, you said the most today, girl. Hope you read it.

SPEAKER_07 1:30:19

I did. I'm like, damn, I never received hate mail, so it might start to um uh so I'll give the email first so you can contact me there. So ne period cosplays at gmail.com. If you feel so inclined to shoot me a message, um, I am also on Facebook at Sio Ne Cosplay and on Instagram, SioNay underscore cosplay. Hope to talk to y'all soon, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:52

All right, and then of course myself, uh Suchi no Shogun, Suchi underscore no underscore shogun uh on Instagram, I G, uh Suchi is spelled T-S-U-C-H-I, um, as well. You can also find me on either Blurred Creations on Instagram, blurred creations shop on Facebook, uh, or blurred creations on TikTok, I believe is where we are now. Um, and then of course, uh Umbral Scarcade on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, uh, Twitch, YouTube, and one more place. I think it might be Discord. I'm not sure. Anyway, um, but yes, thank you all. Oh, right, the Blurred Spectrum uh podcast. We can be reads the Blurred Spectrum on Instagram, on Facebook, and on Twitter, um, or Linktree. Um, uh, and then of course, uh, our mailbag, the Blurred Spectrum at Armbrose K.com. Thank you all for listening. Uh, thank you, panelists, again, for being here. Uh, if you have any topics or you want us to dive a little bit deeper into cultivating the church, feel free to hit our mailbag or hit us up on our social medias. Um, and we will talk to you next time. Sayonara.