SPEAKER_03 0:03

Welcome back, everyone, to the blurred spectrum. This week on our podcast, we have an interesting topic. Uh was uh brought together by our panelists. They feel as though it's a topic that many people would like to discuss and uh figure out what is the truth behind it, which is Steven Universe. Not necessarily versus, but I'll say versus um Shera. Very interesting subtopic. So, what I will do, I will leave it up to our panelists. I'm not going to interject in any way, shape, or form, uh, but let me introduce them first. Starting with the black McCoy, we have the Doctor, Kaze, Sayone, Horde P, Yellow Diamond, and Paul Trillich. So I'm gonna leave it to them. All I gotta say is clean fight, no eye gouging, no hair pulling, stay on topic, make sure you give your facts, always have footnotes, begin.

SPEAKER_08 1:08

And make sure those footnotes are in MLA. I'm triggered, no. Okay. So um she um let everyone know we're going to be doing uh an uh a comparative, a comparison and a contrast between the Diamond Authority from Steven Universe and Horde Prime from She Rai. I actually, because Horde P, you're the one who brought this topic up initially, and I thought it was an amazing idea. So why specifically comparing these two different, like I don't want to go off the I'm just gonna go off the I'm just gonna go ahead and jump off the ledge and call them figures of oppression.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

The reason why is because in the in the long run, I think they both had a like kind of mutual idea or mutual um goal, so to speak, but they came at it very differently. Also, if you look at how Steven Universe and She-Ra goes, they have a very similar like kind of like story of like, so to speak, Steven Universe coming of age into his hero, and then they did Steven Universe Future, which I don't know what the fuck that was. But then um, and then you also had how She-Ra was coming into her own. And I think ultimate and what really ended up doing it for me was um as I was sitting there talking to my wife, and I was and we were just talking about like we I think we had not too long ago just finished She-Ra. And I kept thinking about how She-Rot and Steven Universe at one point were going in the same direction, but then they just veered in two totally different ways, and She Rot closed out the story in a way that I thought Steven Universe should have. The way they fleshed out all the characters towards the end, the way that they they didn't just start throwing like random stuff at you left and right to try and meet up with a story that they never really kept up with until I want to say the second or third season when they finally were like, you know what, let's focus on Steven and his origin. And and then they kept jumping back and forth between showing Stephen and then showing some of the passive characters, and showing Stephen and showing some of the passive characters, but then we'll dive into like mental health here and there. So it became like it became a thing of who was were the villains really villains, or were they just were they just ignorant? More so speak. It was like I said, it was it was more it became more of a thing of, oh, they're not really villains. The way they carry themselves isn't really like Nazis.

SPEAKER_08 3:38

It's just that they didn't know it's like, you know, it's like it was kind of so I I feel I feel like Horde Prime knew what he was doing. I feel like Horde Prime knew exactly what the hell he was doing.

SPEAKER_10 3:49

Yeah, Horror Prime knew what the fuck he was doing. I thought that's like I thought like the way I looked at it was I saw Horror Prime knew what he was doing for a long time. I thought the diamonds knew what they were doing too, but apparently that was wrong and they just kind of threw that out there.

SPEAKER_08 4:01

Oh absolutely not. Diamonds just didn't give a shit.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

Yeah, it was kind of annoying. Like I was kind of annoyed how they switched off, they switched the diamonds the way they did towards the end. But then not only did they switch the diamonds, all of a sudden Rose became a bad guy, ultimate bad guy. Like we didn't know. Rose was a real bad guy, the whole goddamn series. So it was kind of like and the TV Universe was making up for that. It was just the way they switched everything, just I just kept throwing comparisons back and forth, not to mention that the coding, the way they both do their coding was kind of similar. Umes that they talk about in both shows, in terms of how they not only cover mental health and trauma, but how they also cover like individuality and everything is about the same to me. Um so it was so that's another reason why I kept drawing comparisons between the two. Like now I draw comparisons between Dragon Prince and Avatar.

SPEAKER_08 4:57

I yeah, it is. But I will say when it comes to, at least when it comes to she had a lot more um wiggle room and a lot more to work with than Steven Universe did because Steven Universe, like Rebecca Sugar, was working with what the parameters that she had for Cartoon Network and what ultimately what they wanted. So she could only do so much. And I remember I was watching some interviews and reading some interviews that she had done. There's a lot more to Steven Universe that she wanted to actually put into the show. Like there's a lot more that she wanted to flesh out, and that's part of what Steven Universe's future was, but because it was to kind of round off his arc with round off this kind of development that Steven went through, but also help bring some other like plot points along that she didn't get a chance to touch as she was working on the series because she only had so much time and every episode's only 10 minutes. And Cartoon Network had their own, like, I guess, deliverables, they had their own things that they wanted. Um, but Shiro work work I've noticed that series that Netflix that come to us through Netflix, they tend to have a lot more time to be able to do so much more. I think um we're not talking about it today, but um the Voltron series that Netflix kind of rebooted with DreamWorks, they did a lot for what they had.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

So I think that all the whole separate conversation. I would love to see Thundercast come in.

SPEAKER_08 6:14

That'd be a good idea. But yeah, I think that's why Shira was the way it was. Also because because Netflix is an independent platform, they had they could do pretty much whatever they wanted because they didn't have to like deal with, I guess, the the bureaucratics of Cartoon Network or just the or the I'll say the the values that Cartoon Network um has to work with or the limitations that they that they're bound to. But I think those are great points. Um does anyone else have anything to add before we start moving forward?

SPEAKER_00 6:41

The color palette. Um I've noticed with Steven Universe and She-Ra, they had similar color palettes, a lot of pastels, more so on Steven Universe's side. It felt more kiddish, um, you know, so I can understand why it was catered to Car Tier and Cartoon Network viewers per se. Um She-Ra to me was a little bit more adult, um, even with like the toxic uh relationship between She-Ra and Katra, that that was more like adultish than um Steven Universe. But um I feel like with with Steven Universe, you know, with the diamonds, you had the yellow diamond, the white diamond. I like the it was more aesthetically pleasing to me watching it. Um Shira, it was, it was, even though I did like the art style, um, I don't really care too much about the aesthetic, even though they both had the same color palette, the pastels, um, but I did appreciate how Shira was more for like adult viewers, like young adult adult viewers where Steven Universe you can tell is more fitted to like I'd say middle school, high school, that that type of adult range. But it is something I've noticed with when it comes to art style and color, like to use a certain color palette, like core movies, they usually go more for like dreary colors, um, you know, and then actual movies are more brighter and bold colors. So just things that I've noticed, you know, on an artistic level that I appreciate with both.

SPEAKER_09 8:08

You know, um, when you mentioned the color palette, it makes me think of one thing that stood out to me as far as the contrast between the two with their leaders, you know, like fore prime and white diamond, you know, both kind of visually and like they're have powers like the mind control as well. And you know, they have this detached nature, even though white diamond is more kind of like physically insane, I guess, is you know um, and I thought the similar similarities were really interesting. And I did feel like, you know, I remember Horde brought up the uh I guess the kind like kind of a redemption arc, like maybe they were villains, maybe they really weren't, uh, or they were completely villains. I felt like that's one of the issues I did take with the diamonds to an extent. And I love her saying I loved a lot of the kind of relationship between Stephen and the Diamonds, but it felt like the diamonds got a partial redemption arc. Like on one hand, oh well, they started to realize, hey, you know, what we did was wrong, and you know, we're trying to do things better in the future. And oh, we have these new powers that are more positive than you know what we had before. But I feel like they really didn't explore their relationship with the things and the trauma and the damage they had done before to the universe. You know, I feel like they explore Stephen, you know, directly in the end of his arc, you know, or the end of you know the series where they went through, oh, look at what we did to Stephen, like this is our fault. They kind of hit at that. But if we think of all the damage they did to the universe, um I would have liked to see some of the emotional side of that explored a little bit more, as opposed to just, oh, well, now we can uncrept everyone and everything's fine. Right. That's somewhat of an issue I took, even though generally, like I actually love the diamonds as villains. And I love that they're complicated villains who aren't, you know, kind of the straight up pure, like I guess cartoony caricature of, you know, someone who's super evil. Like the fact that they're complicated in a lot of ways. Um, it's really interesting.

SPEAKER_08 10:18

I think that one of my favorite things about the diamonds that you brought up was like how distance they were. And it's actually something that I find that was one of my favorite things about Peter Capaldi as the doctor, was that he became like after that regeneration, he became extremely he became full on alien. Like he became that much more distance from the different like customs and things like that of what it meant to be human. And I think that's something that the Diamonds really like characterize really, really well. And it's not so much that they I'll say, at least as far as white Diamond is concerned, because she's head, she's a she's the HBSC, as Mark so eloquently put it. But um, but like she is the one who runs everything, but she's so divorced from these ideas of what it means to um not only be human, but be you know, be kind, be considerate, be empathetic. Like she's only concerned with this kind of order that we still don't entirely know where it came from. I think that's one of the large things that the the Season Universe fandom has always been intrigued about. Like, where did the diamonds themselves come from? Because it doesn't because just given the way that you know gems are formed and the way diamonds are formed or whatever, um, they come from somewhere. And to think that white diamonds just kind of existed before all of this doesn't really hold tight. But just the fact that she is so in I almost said immune, um, but the fact that she's so disconnected from what it means to like interact. Also, uh, one thing I wanted to talk more, like the color palettes was extremely interesting when it came to the shows. Um, I know we were talking about like the differences between how the diamonds kind of related to Earth, at least and how they relate to Steven, and like that difference between being alien and being human. But like the color palettes in Steven Universe, and Shine like when um Sandy brought them up, it's like Steven Universe made it as I think it was intentional to make it as um as bubbly and like childlike and disarming as possible. So by the time they dropped like the really, really big shit, it was like, oh. And they had very rare moments when they um shifted to a darker, like shadowy kind of like color palette color palette. And I think the lighting for the show really helped with those moments. But I think with Shira, they were extremely intentional, intentional about juxtaposing the how they um how they um depicted the Fright Zone versus how they um depicted it wasn't Ethereum. Was it Ethereum? Ethereum, yeah. Yes, how they depicted Ethereum. Like they had all these bright, beautiful pastel colors, no matter what was happening in Ethereum. It could have been a whole war happening on that side of the on that side of the planet. But Fright Zone was always dark and gloomy and like just latent with destruction. Um, and I think that's one of the things that adds more adds like more dimensions to um the horde, at least on the side of um Shera. Because when you look at Hordak and how the Fright Zone was set up, like even Hordak himself, away from Ford Prime, he looked entirely different. And it made and as it was as he was compared to Horde Prime, he was seen as flawed, and he was seen as um, no, he was he was seen as flawed and imperfect. And it was completely ludicrous that he would go out on his own and do something separate from the like the motives and the drive of Horde Prime, which I thought was interesting. Because when they actually introduced Horde Prime, it was like, oh shit, like what the fuck is this? Like I didn't know we had a whole hive mind that we were dealing with, and it all turns out to still be one nigga. And you end up noticing that there's not just Horde Prime, there's Horde Prime, and then there's Horde Ak. Because even when Hordack is reassimilated into Horde Prime, he still maintains these kind of like echoes of personality that are seen as imperfect or seen as flaws or seen as like undesirable traits because they don't serve the quote unquote greater good of what horror prime is after.

SPEAKER_07 14:24

You know, one thing that was I was thinking about, I think to address what people some people were saying earlier is I'll try to tie it together a couple of things. Um one, um, just like the idea of Steven Universe. And um, I think some I forgot who said it, but just I think they were really spot on when they talked about how it was more about kids, right? And more marketed toward talking, speaking to kids. And I think it falls along the lines of the cartoons that a kid will watch it and an adult will watch it, they both will get it's the same message, but get it on a deeper level based on their maturity. And I think it kind of falls along the same lines as like a tiny tunes and animaniacs, um, things like that, where um kids and adults can watch it and they'll both laugh sometimes for the same reason, sometimes for different reasons. And so from having listened to like the extra Steaming Universe podcast, there's so much depth and layers to what she was trying to do that, you know, as a if you're eight years old, you're probably not gonna get it. Like I remember her explaining why White Diamond was the way that she was, and that she like light is white, but it has all white light has all the colors of the spectrum, and so white diamond viewed everybody else as a a less complete version of herself. And so that's something that okay, that's cool. Um, but does a little kid need to see that in order to get that? Oh, she learned and she changed. Like they pick up the messages, but it doesn't like it's more toward, hey, I want a kid to be able to see this and get something, I want an adult to be able to see this and get something. Whereas She-Raw definitely was more like, okay, look, this is not, you know, we are in the teen adult, we are in the the the the teen fiction section now, at least. And and um, and that's sort of where um it has to be. I have to admit that as someone who has watched the original She-Raw, when I first started watching the new one, I was kind of like, what? Um just learned what's happening here, but then I began to appreciate it for just on its own merits, um, because while there's certain things that the original one did, the the new one fleshed out things that I mean, I mean, in the 80s was a very dark time for like stuff reselling cartoons. It was, I mean, basically, if you sold the toy, that's really all we needed. And you know, we don't have to explain anything. You know, it's just, oh look, we're walking down the street and all of a sudden the tiger grows and gets a saddle. How? We don't care, it sells a toy. So it's like it was it it was, you know, but now things are more fleshed out in a way that I think that She-Ra, the new version, does go out of its way to flesh things out. Like even though you don't know everything, and it's not like with Steve, with Sim Universe, you are you're learning things as Steven learns things. You're learning, you're seeing the show from his perspective. But in She-Ra, I didn't pick that up, maybe it changes, I don't know. But it's almost like everybody's on for the same type of ride. You're kind of and there might be some things that you know that nobody else does, or or that the main characters don't know. So it's it's it's definitely geared differently. Like for Steven, it's like, yeah, a kid will want to follow along because he's the only kid in the show. But this one is like, oh, it's complexity, and the complexity is obvious, and you get to see things that the characters themselves don't get to see. Um, and you get to wait for the payoff. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

I wanted to piggyback off of Paul and um the black report. When it comes to how we look at gems and stones and diamonds, there's you know, naturally a hierarchy is how we look at it. And, you know, diamonds are the crme de la crème, they're at the top, and also looking at how diamonds are formed, you know, a lot of pressure. And that's how um I can see how white diamonds are the way how she is, cold, calculated, very structured. Um, you know, and like you, like Gwen said, like she kind of isolated herself emotionally. But we had to go through a lot of pressure and a lot of foundation to be the way that she was. So um it would have been nice to kind of see her journey on how she was, but just seeing how diamonds in general, you know, how people just look at gems, how we go to the stores, we want to get a diamond. You know, that is the pinnacle of perfection with a lot of people. And then, you know, the justification of that, we see garnet, and garnet was kind of looked at as an abomination. Not many people go to a store because they want a garnet stone. So I was just kind of interesting, you know, you don't really think, oh yeah, I have a garnet ring on my finger. Garnet's not even really a stone that we even care about. We care more about sapphires, rubies, and diamonds, and but garnets kind of like the ass backwards of the stones. We don't really care about that. It's kind of like what kind of like topaz in a way. So it's really interesting looking at how the creator did the hierarchy of stones and how people view stones in daily life. Like people kill for blood, you know, for you know, for blood diamonds. People want that perfection, you know, that pinnacle of perfection that a lot of people, you know, think they can't touch, it's unattainable. And that's probably how you know White Diamond sees herself. I am God, and you know, little diamonds are just kind of the pieces of me, but I am the pinnacle of perfection that people are trying to see.

SPEAKER_08 20:00

It's interesting that actually reminds me of like just the the raw, the very like blatant comparisons between Horde Prime and White Diamond. It's like they both see themselves as these ultimate figures of perfection. But um, I know um Horde P and I were talking about it the other day, and I was after I read some of his, it's like they are it's like Horde Prime was moving under the guise of quote unquote peace, like essential, like entire like totalian, totalitarian colonization for the sake of peace. Like his idea of peace is what everyone needs, and the the rest of the universe just basically needs to fall in line one way or another so that they can all be happy through his vision. But White Diamond, I don't think White Diamond doesn't have that at all. She just has this idea of what is perfect, and it doesn't matter what everyone else wants. It's just some it doesn't, it's it's similar to Hor Horde Prime's like it doesn't matter what everyone else wants, but it's different insofar as like White Diamond isn't thinking that isn't thinking in terms of peace. She's thinking in terms of order and what is right and what makes sense, which I think is like the largest thing that makes the distinction between those two figureheads because they they both embody this idea of all encompass like this all-encompassing, like pure white color. Like when like um Paul was explaining that Rebecca Stucker made sure that white is white diamond is the white is the color on the spectrum that encompasses all of the colors, but Horde Prime is this character that encompasses all other characters, like the entire fleet, the entire existence of Horde Prime is this mass of like other bodies that he basically hops from whenever he needs to, like a Roshimoto or some shit. And it's interesting how they both it's interesting because well, my initial thought is it's interesting because Horde Prime is like trying to be white diamond. White diamond, actually, in my opinion, has much more power than Horde Prime. Prime because she can actually enact the things that she wants to do. She can impose her will on other people, or I'll say other gems specifically. And Horde Prime can only impose his impose his like fake omniscience onto other like members of his hive mind that he has created for himself so he can move so he can continue to live on. So he doesn't, it's like he has this this false god image where you have White Diamond who actually has this more god-like image, but at the end of the day, it kind of has to come down, it has to come down to Earth, where Horde Prime just has to be eliminated altogether. And so I'm curious as to what you all think about the the journeys that these two figureheads have had to go through throughout these series, where white diamond has had to come down off of her pedestal, even in the Steven Universe movie, after you've gone through like a two-year time skip, she's still learning. Like I was at the beginning of the movie, she's like, I even say please and thank you to lower life forms. And Steven has to remind her to say equal life forms and not lower life forms. And Horde Prime has never has a moment like that. He is always in a place where I am the I am all seeing, I'm all knowing, I'm all powerful. But at the end of the day, but as that's as that part of the season went on, you saw the inconsistencies in that narrative that he himself has built in order to um sustain or fuel the the um the image or the the the kind of mandate that he's given himself and he's given others to validate his own existence.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

I would like to uh talk about that actually, because I think one of the biggest things I can think of between the two is um it's ignorance versus insanity. Where white diamonds come from a place of ignorance and now she's learning, which is if you think about it, it's a theme amongst everybody in the Steven Universe show. As you say, as somebody said earlier, it's like a coming of age. So it's like as as kids grow up and they learn, as Steven grows up and he learns, the gems, if you really think about it, because they've been so close to their own bubble, they're now growing up because they're being uh they're experiencing other things, other other people, other beings, other cultures. So they're now growing and learning. Where uh you look at uh Horde Prime, and it's a question of it's not a question, it's a thing of Horde Prime thinks that if there's anything wrong, it's not the system, it's the person. Now the person has to get the leader from that system. This even goes to how he treats Horda. Horak wasn't fully involved in the in the high mind uh system. So there was something wrong with Hordack. It wasn't that Hordack had maybe learned different, it wasn't that even after Horak became more part of it, it wasn't that Horak had learned something different or experienced something different, so now he knows better. It's a thing of now, this is something wrong with you, bro. This system is like so it was like it is it's a noticeable thing as like time goes on, even to like you said, towards the end, but you're still seeing White Diamond learn even in Steam Universe Future, which is supposed to be like what 10 years after the number of years.

SPEAKER_08 25:07

No, it's not it's not 10 years. This may be like six months. Yeah, six months after the movie.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

I thought it was more than that.

SPEAKER_08 25:14

Nah, because Steven's still like 16, 17.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

I thought it was like 18, 19, I think.

SPEAKER_08 25:19

No, no, no. Because he's a ri in the original series, he's like he turns 13. Yeah, 14. Yeah, he turns 14. And in the movie, they do a two-year time skipping. He's 16 in the movie, and uh Steven Universe features uh yeah, a few six months after the um events of the movie.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

But um, so but it's like you still see them learning and changing. CB Universe even opens a school for the gyms so that they become more accustomed to you know, life, pretty much. It's kind of like how you open a school. Kids learn through school how to be more accustomed to society, and that's pretty much how the gyms are learning through Steven to be more accustomed to the society that they are now heavily a part of now. So in Horde Palm's mind, there's nothing wrong with my system. There is nothing to learn. I don't need to be accustomed to anything. Y'all need to be accustomed to me. When you continue to to carry on in a form like that, even when it's showing issues, that's insanity of this world. It's like you're insane to think that there's that you're unflawed in every way, shape, and form. You're insane to think that there is absolutely nothing wrong with you as a whole, which I think is where they kind of while there was a redemption for the diamonds, but there wasn't a redemption for the time. You can't if you feel there's nothing wrong with you, there's no chance of them having a redemption. You can't redeem from what you feel is perfection. Where the diamonds, they had to learn we're not perfect. So therefore, now we can begin to grow and be better.

SPEAKER_08 26:51

So fortunately for us, we have one of the diamonds on our panel today. So my diamonds, please. I would love to hear. Yellow is the my favorite. Blue is my favorite, but that's also for she partly because she probably became a stoner at the end of the show. But she was literally weed. Yeah, she was literally weed. But um, no, but so one of the things that's interesting um were the rest of the diamonds as they kind of related themselves to White Diamond. Um, so yellow diamond, how do you feel uh what are your thoughts? What are your feelings on how um on not just the redemption arcs themselves for the rest of the diamonds, but how they kind of enforce themselves throughout the series, like the images that they built for themselves?

SPEAKER_01 27:41

So um I always so first and foremost, for me, yellow diamond was is one of my favorites. Actually, the diamonds themselves are my favorites. The one that I most identify with is yellow. Um, those that do know me know I am very blunt. I r seriously never really have fucks to give about somebody's feelings, especially only if it is somebody that I really don't know. Um, I don't care what your feelings are, especially as it pertains to what I need from you and what I want you to do for me. Um which is again one of those situations where yellow is I'm about business, I don't care about your feelings, this shit needs to be said. Um as far as like the flushing out of their stories, I feel like how Rebecca Sugar wrote this was that I don't think that she's gonna truly be done with this series because she left so much more to create in a more expanded universe that pertains to all of these characters, starting off with the diamonds, as we all know. Um, white, the color of light, it has all colors of the spectrum on there. There's a, I mean, we could sit up here and we probably all have seen it. If we've ever done Google images of, you know, Steven Universe characters, you know, we see the possibility that people have actually come up, you know, in some of their lore, that there are different colored diamonds that represent different other things, which would then lead to a, you know, a really good power struggle that could actually happen between the diamonds and these other diamonds, if there were, that could then spread out through everybody and impact somebody in every different way. Um so I definitely love the fact that it was I felt like I I felt like I haven't felt like this in a while. I'm like um Trilich over here. I grew up in a time, I grew up I'm I'm an 80s baby. I grew up in I'm an eight, I was born in '84. I remember cartoons from when I was four, five, and six, that actually, and then all the way up into the end of Fox Keys, the actual real Fox Keys. Yeah. I felt like every time I watched a cartoon, not only was it funny, but it was something there that I can that I could take away from it. All of these other cartoons that have come out since that time, nine times out of ten, they suck ass. There's nothing that you can really get from them. Um but this was one of the first cartoons that I watched in a long time that I walked away feeling some kind of way. Walked away, especially from one of these from from the from the end of the third. After the whole um change your mind episodes and stuff like that, that was the first time I had cried off of a cartoon ever.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

So it definitely hit me. It definitely hit me, and it means a lot too. But on the other side of that, Shera for me sucks.

SPEAKER_06 30:44

Why? What's what's inside?

SPEAKER_01 30:47

I mean, like horrible. I'm gonna be more specific. Season one was cute, it was nice, I loved it. Theme song was open because it's four seasons altogether.

SPEAKER_08 31:03

I the four or five, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

Okay. So I think all the way up until the last episode of um season four, I felt like they were they were good. This whole season was so goddamn boring to me, I slept on it all the time, and I've attempted five times to re-watch it, but I still cannot make it through because it's just you mean the final season? This final season. Okay, sucks. I don't like Hard Rhyme as a villain. I think he's basic, dry. To me, I viewed him like Wolverine. What purpose do you serve here? You you don't you don't you don't add nothing for me.

SPEAKER_07 31:43

Wow, shake the table.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

Like seriously, you would have heard me say this about Dragon Ball Z. I hate Dragon Ball to the point where I wish I could travel back in time and murder. I would um honestly bring the drama. I wouldn't then start them. I wouldn't have start them. Whoever came up with the idea of player uh um horde prime, I want to I want to introduce you to the back of a sword, to the sword, to the back of your neck, what start got in Game of Thrones.

SPEAKER_08 32:28

I still like so quick question. So I didn't watch the original She-Ra, so that's for you and for you and um Paul. So was was was the horde and like horde prime were they uh parts of the original She-Ra series? Or were they new? Okay.

SPEAKER_07 32:43

So for me No, no, Horn Prime wasn't, but the horde was Hordack was Hordack was the main, there was no Horde Prime, but Hordack was the main bad guy. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

So just like I felt with season five of She-Ra, I hated the original She-Ra. She-Ra was always boring to me. I rather He-Man, I thought He-Man was much better than She-Ra. But I've never been a She-Ra fan. I've like, just like how I fell asleep in season five, I fought I fell asleep on the original episodes.

SPEAKER_07 33:14

So see, what made She-Ra cool to me, because I watched, I I mean, there's a really great, by the way. I think this is one thing too that I think I haven't seen all of the new She-Ra, so maybe something I'd miss, but the one thing that also makes the original She-Ra different is that from jump, He-Man is a part of the story. And so you have a whole nother big deal character that's kind of in the carried along. Yeah, yeah. But um, the thing that I liked, and it's a really good documentary on FSLTesis, is out because I was impacted by both. I watched, I had the He-Man toys. I didn't have the She-Ra toys. I would have had them. Did you have the sword? Did you have um I did. There's a picture of me at three years old in the backyard in a coat with the He-Man sword. Cheese, and I'm gonna find it because I I had the I broke it somehow. So typical me. But it had tape around it, and I still had it. What I really wanted was the Thundercat sword, and my dad couldn't find it. That's the heartbreaker. I got if I find it today, I'm buying it. Like that, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

But just so full disclosure, thunder Thundercats is another 80s show that I hated.

SPEAKER_07 34:21

So we're gonna have to block him. We're gonna have to block the diamond.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

I love the I love, I honestly, I grew, I love G.I. Joe. I had every G.I. Joe that ever existed.

SPEAKER_07 34:36

Gonna love the train shows.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

I had the I had the 80s version, I had the 80s versions of the G.I. Joe's, all of them, and then I had the 90s ones, I had all of them. But my main 80s cartoon was Jim and the Holograms.

SPEAKER_07 34:50

So I guess you can stay.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

So did you like Josie and the Pussycats? You know? Josie and the Pussycat, Josie.

SPEAKER_10 35:06

I'm talking about anyway.

SPEAKER_08 35:09

So as we were talking about before. Before we hopped in the TARDIS and went back to the 80s.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

Change it.

SPEAKER_08 35:19

But no, that's uh that's just as valid. Because like as someone who, like I said, as someone who didn't watch the original Sheila series, it was Horde Prime, and when I swear when he was introduced, I'm like, oh, so this is someone who was a part of the original series. So I kind of went along with it. So the fact that you said that he was just someone who was thrown in and introduced, and he was, and to call him basic, I don't entirely disagree. Because it was like, and I think I think the Horde people have like kind of agree with this. Like he had this very um, he was a pretty much he had this like very uh megalow, like megalomaniac personality. It was really it was like someone who had who was power tripping and who was like so so self-indulgent that the way they saw the rest of the world after they had self-examined didn't see like like you said, didn't they like Horror Prime didn't see a problem with himself. The problem was everybody else. And when the problem's everybody else and you see yourself as a solution, then what else are you gonna do but try and impose your will on everyone else? It's very similar to the Daleks in Doctor Who, like they see themselves as perfect and they see everyone else as basically trash. I mean they're space Nazis, but they're their um but their goal is not to you know bring peace, they just want to destroy everything, destroy and subjugate everything else that is not them. Um but with Horde Prime, it's like I I I wanted to empathize with Horde Prime so badly because it's like after a couple conversations that he had with Adora and with Katra, it's like and um with Glimmer, it's like he wanted peace, and I I truly wanted to believe that, but it wasn't as it wasn't convincing because like you said, he was pretty big. It was shallow, it was really shallow.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

It was it was and that's why I didn't like him. His whole personality, all of it, it was shallow. It to me, it wasn't in-depth, and it's and it's a character pattern that's been done in villains so much, but you realize though, in history, for like all of these series, those types of villains are not the ones that we all love and adore, it's the ones that have more in-depth stories.

SPEAKER_08 37:31

And right, like we're in that time period where people have villains who are fleshed out. Steven Universe had villains who are fleshed out. Like the and at this point, we're like, were the diamonds even really villains, or were they just not accustomed to the way things were from? And I think Horde Prime had that same kind of you know potential. Horde Prime had that same potential.

SPEAKER_02 37:49

I didn't it doesn't look like they did like the thing about Horde Prime was he came off like he was modeled after White Diamond, but he they did his character like he was Christian Bell from American Psycho. The only difference American Psycho, we can see that there was a lot going on with him, he would just kind of lose his shit. Where it was, no, this is a villain, he's supposed to be like this. So now he kind of feels a little dry. And you as you get to see that his they're trying to do that whole he wants peace thing, but really that's just his megalomania trying to give him a reason for why he wants power so bad. So it's kind of like now it's kind of like uh we know what you're really about, bro. This is you're not Thanos. Like when they did this for Thanos, it made sense. Right Thanos obviously wanted he just wanted his people to survive, he just wanted the universe to last. He just wanted to be able to go back this farm after all this is done and do his thing. And horror prime, you all you you know that after this, he's gonna search for next power. He's gonna keep looking for power, he doesn't and once he gets his peace, he's just gonna destroy it all. So it was like it's kind of like you've seen this villain before, you kind of know what he's really about. It's it's kind of boring after a while. Right. And I agree with that.

SPEAKER_09 38:56

You know, that's one thing. Like, I definitely think horror prime felt like a very uncomplicated villain, kind of almost evil for the sake of evil, with the Megalomania and whatnot. Um it did feel really standard. I agree that it's like super tropey in a lot of ways, where you know, we see a type of villain over and over cartoons. I think it can be done well with the right type of justification or the right backstory, but like in that case, I don't feel like it was well executed.

SPEAKER_08 39:26

Like and you know why? Yeah, I I I completely agree with you. And I think why is because up until Horde Prime was introduced, we had those kinds of villains. We had that with Shadowweaver, we had that with Catra. We had that with Horde. We had people who had these fully fleshed out backstories. They had personality, they had something for us to latch on to to not just identify with them, but to make them more like empathetic as characters. To they like it added some humanity, quote unquote, to them. But with Horde Prime, it completely stripped all of that away. And not only that, it didn't give us a reason as to why it was stripped away in the first place. Like it would be different if we understood why Horde Prime was the way he was. The thing, and I think the reason that we didn't need that with the diamonds was because it's pretty much understood that the diamonds are just doing what they've always done. Horde Prime, for all intents and purposes, at least based on what I saw from Horde Prime, he was one nigga who started making all these other clones and then just amassed an army and just started moving. Why? No clue. Peripheral, no clue. Um, and even the re and I'm if he did give a reason, I don't even remember what it was because it wasn't that poignant or that pressing for me to be like, oh, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_09 40:45

It's so interesting when you said the diamonds, like the big comparison for me or contrast, I feel like horror crime is a lot like what white diamond would be if changed your mind and all the episodes after it never happened. You know, where up until that point, this authority figure who, like we know, has the powerful mind control powers and this real focus on horror, but there really wasn't a depth of her up until that episode. And then we started really exploring more and more about white dime, and you see, wow, she's so much more complex. And you know, you have to have that complexity and you have to have some elements that are somewhat redeemable, even if it's not like a complete redemption arc, that's what makes villains unique and interesting in a lot of ways. And Horbon just never really got that for me.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

Like I I look at it like this when I'm looking for villains, I use the, and this is gonna be very cliche. I use the Disney villain scale.

SPEAKER_08 41:41

Oh, oh, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

That's what I do.

SPEAKER_08 41:44

I don't know the Disney villain scale, so explain that to me.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

So for me, all of the Disney villains, they have some type of because this is gonna and this is gonna challenge. This is actually me pushing back on some of what um the doctor just said as well. We didn't learn about the complexities of White Diamond in those last three episodes. It was before they even when yellow and blue stopped fighting with Steven on Earth, we immediately started getting more about White Diamond's personality right there. And it was just a build-up for us to actually see her personality in action. So I want to push back on that. And I looked and I feel like that is the same thing on Disney movies. You get a build-up of who this person is, and then when they make that grand scene, that grand entrance, it's like okay, I'm seeing, I'm seeing some stuff. And then as the movie is going along, you're learning more and more about them. And that's how in that process you immediately attend them. Next thing you know, you're like the hugest stand for a villain. So for me, I look at my favorite Disney villains, top two, um Maleficent and Dr. Facilier.

SPEAKER_08 43:04

I look at them as terribly underserved. But terrible Dr. Facilier was terribly underserved in that movie. But that's a different one.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

But he exactly, he really was, especially if you know about voodoo culture and all of that type of stuff. Um, so yeah, he was very downplayed. But that's those are my go-to's for layers. For layers, and those layers even include their color patterns. For me, they do because a lot of the colors that they wear are some of my favorite colors.

SPEAKER_06 43:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

So there's so much for me, I connect on those villains so much. And going back to horror crime, that's why I didn't. It was nothing there for me to attach to. Or when he finally came in, I checked out and I was like, okay, well, now I'm having a tough time trying to even get through this final season because there's nothing there for me to attach to. I was like, ooh, okay, another, you know, I already knew. Ketra and you know she were what was gonna happen with them. I knew that was gonna happen. It was just it was right then there from like the first interaction with when they started disagreeing with each other.

unknown 44:10

You could say the obsession that came between the two of them and everything, it was there.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

Um, but yeah, that's that's my pushback on that. I couldn't I couldn't connect with World Prime at all. Not even on that Disney standard. It was nothing there for me to latch on to.

SPEAKER_08 44:26

Yeah, um, and I think the the juxtaposition to that is like we could connect to the diamonds. Like you have a diamond to identify with. I would I know exactly I would be in Blue Diamonds Court. Like I know a diamond I would be under. And I think the one thing that we haven't got a chance to really talk about was uh Pink Diamond. As kind of like this figure in the entire show who was like the catalyst for so many of this, so much of this stuff happening, because we talked about villains and we talked about these structures, but in r and and I think the thing that makes I think if anything, Pink Diamond is closer to horde prime than white diamond actually is because Pink Diamond had this m kind of took this more individualistic spirit and moved forward with it and had all of this reckless shit happen because of it. And the uh for those of you who may or may not see the show, and you know, of course we've been spoiling all spoiling a lot of different things, but nothing specific. Like Pink Diamond has literally given so much of so much carelessness to other other beings in her wake in the same way that Horde Prime and the Diamond and White Diamond has, but I think the the difference between Pink Diamond and White Diamond and Horde Prime would be that Horde Prime is self-justified. White Diamond is not as much not so much self-justified as she is uh motivate motivated by this kind of idea of perfection. And Pink Diamond is more so motivated by this not even just chaos, but like this this kind of like very fast and loose interpretation of freedom and liberation.

SPEAKER_02 46:03

She belongs to the street.

SPEAKER_08 46:05

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 46:11

But you know, I have I have a thought that I think too, I don't know, this is what help because when we were talking about heroes and villains and them being fleshed out, that if you look at a lot of the older cartoons, the focus was the hero. The hero had all the complexity. Like look at Thundercats and and um you know Silverhawks and you know, even comic books, like the point was the hero had to be if the hero was the main point. Um, particularly like even with She-Rob, what made her different is that yeah, she was strong, whatever, but she used her mind and her I think of her like Wonder Woman light, like she was she did she was strong and fast in everything, but she used other clever ways to fix problems as opposed to He-Man who just hit things. And so that well, honestly, that too. Like all like Superman, Batman, um you could probably argue for most of the heroes of that time, that's what it was. It wasn't until we move forward that um now it's like, well, the villains, like, we just won't accept of unless it's like something like let's say like Batman. I think that's still more in a realm of like myth, like the Joker and also that doesn't really make it's like trying to be rooted, but it's not really rooted in reality because how can it be? That I think that might be an exception, but like now we need villains to make sense. It's like it's why does this person it's not because before the the villain was just something for the hero to it was a a bad guy for the hero to paint on and say, oh bad guy, let me show you how great I am. And that doesn't really work anymore. And so now it's like, oh, well, why does this villain want to take over the world? Just because like what's the motivation? What's the point? It's like we want human, like there has to be a reason that explains why the villain does the things that they do. Um, and without a real reason, the hero doesn't make sense to me. It's like, well, okay, well, because it's like we assume the hero is the hero. You know what I mean? Maybe maybe that's what it is, but it's like if the villain does not have, even if it's way out there, you know what I mean? Like, let's say even something ridiculous like Dark Side, that is ridiculous high concept. But he wants an equation. He wants something. That's the one thing he doesn't have, and so that's why he's doing what he does. So it's like, oh, okay, it makes sense. So I think it's something that we look for now that we just didn't look for um once upon a time.

SPEAKER_08 48:34

I think that's just a temporal like shift in values type thing. Um, but that's a whole nother podcast. But but um, so I I guess uh lightning fast, uh really quick final thoughts on the diamonds versus horde prime, um, starting with horde P.

SPEAKER_02 48:52

Um Horde Prime's insanity versus for the most part the diamonds, different characteristics, whether it be order with white diamond or curiosity, aka infatuation with with pink diamond, so on and so forth. The motivations change. So uh honestly, if we're picking, if are we picking? Like, what are we doing? Like, which one is?

SPEAKER_08 49:15

I mean, if you if you had to pick if you had to pick one, which one would you pick?

SPEAKER_02 49:18

Oh, I'm picking the diamonds. Honestly, I'm picking the diamond. I I know I have my issues with pink diamonds, which that we didn't do. Everyone does. But yeah, it's like I said, as a whole, I find all of the diamonds, pink diamond, blue, yellow, and white, I find them increasingly more interesting than horde prime.

SPEAKER_08 49:37

Okay. Yellow diamond.

SPEAKER_02 49:40

But horde prime, he was just he was too under military.

SPEAKER_08 49:43

True, true, true. Yellow diamond.

SPEAKER_01 49:45

Um, I'm happy that you know horde prime has converted. I love I love what I love to bring people to the dark side. We have leather jackets and really great fried chicken and you know, drinks and you know, um just a whole bunch of good stuff. I'm sorry, because I'm starting to get some bunchies right now and I've been thinking about Popeyes.

SPEAKER_08 50:07

I can't. Crispy. No, wait, that's something else. Never mind.

SPEAKER_01 50:17

So yeah. Um also I want to add too, I just thought about there would have been a great, I think it would be a great comparison to look at the Galactic Republic under Senator Paul Putin moving forward to being the Emperor, and probably looking about how there is a compar I I think I could see a comparison between Trump and Horde Prime much better.

SPEAKER_08 50:40

I think I would need backstory though, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

Yeah. So they have clone they have cloning involved, a lot, a lot of cloning involved. They have that in common. And that hive mind mentality of the clones.

SPEAKER_06 50:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

So yeah, and that shallowness with why I want to take over the world or take over the universe situation.

SPEAKER_02 51:01

The way they move is kind of similar to how they kind of lull, they like to lull people into a false security, uh, and then all of a sudden it's like, nah, snatch this shit up. Like the way they they both do that.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

Exactly. That is how the empire, that's how the empire, that's how the Galactic Republic turned into the Empire. It was just this slowly but steady, oh, come here and lower your guard down. I just want to spill tea with you, girl.

SPEAKER_08 51:23

And then the plot of Captain American Civil War. Not Civil War, I'm sorry, Winter Soldier. The Doctor. Final thoughts.

SPEAKER_09 51:33

So, yeah, I definitely lean more diamonds. Um, I actually think that both the diamonds and Ford Prime had really good development as far as like, you know, characterizing them as these, you know, somewhat maniacal and you know, these I guess more classic villains in a way that didn't need necessarily a, you know, as was mentioned before. Like villains didn't always need a justification. And I think they did that well for both of them, but for the diamonds, you got just so much more complexity. You know, you got so much more about what was motivating them, so much more that was different from just a standard like villain caricature. And that's kind of why I lean towards the diamonds.

SPEAKER_08 52:16

Kazai, I just realized how quiet you've been this entire time.

SPEAKER_04 52:22

Uh yeah, I'll get I'll give my point in real quick. Uh uh, I don't I don't know too much about Horror Prime, but I I think the most fascinating thing about the diamonds is uh their elevation above the other gems and all the other beings like in the universe because you because you pretty much you have the uh you had the three big diamonds, and then you had like this Braddy curious child that they brought up. And and like, and you know, and so and so Pink Diamond grew up like not, you know, not only knowing that she was like above everything, but she also knew that she wanted to see some, you know, she wanted to see and experience things that the other diamonds did didn't let her. And so, you know, and so she like so she gets away and she starts interacting with these other beings. And and I and I think that uh you know, I think I think I think my main thing is that I don't think the diamonds were ever actually like redeemed. I think everybody confuses uh Rose's fascination uh with lower life forms with like love and and actual care. Like I think I think I think the own I think the first like actual semi-selfish thing Rose did was turn into Steven.

SPEAKER_08 53:47

Um which in and of itself wasn't even an act of love. It was just like, oh, I want to try this thing.

SPEAKER_02 53:53

She made a child and then left it.

SPEAKER_04 53:59

And you know, and aside from like the Gave her child a game freaks treatment. Yo, but aside from the the constructs and the you know kind of imperialism that the diamonds set in place, almost all the obstacles in Steven Universe is from Rose is tripping over you.

SPEAKER_08 54:26

That's a nice way of putting it tripping over everyone.

SPEAKER_04 54:30

And it's you know, and it's just funny that like the you know the diamonds like created this terrible human being, and then that uh well this terrible thing, and then that thing just kind of infected everybody. And then like and even and even and then even later on when the Ste where Steven kind of convinces the diamonds to kind of see things a different way, I don't think they're actually seeing value in these other life forms. They're just seeing it in I care so much about pink that if Pink cares about it, then I care about it. I don't think they see actual value in these, you know, they're still lower life forms. And and if all all the humans uh if everything died, they would they would be sad because because pink would be sad, and then they would expect her to get over it.

SPEAKER_08 55:18

That's fair.

SPEAKER_02 55:20

I don't think pink would be sad though. That's sad my I don't think pink would actually be sad.

unknown 55:26

Steven.

SPEAKER_04 55:26

And Steven would be Pink at this period would be Steven because at this point, yeah. Stephen would be devastating.

SPEAKER_02 55:34

Yeah, Stephen would be devastating, but Steven would just go and like chatter another gym. That's a whole other conversation for later.

SPEAKER_08 55:39

Um, uh final thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 55:44

Um, so with Horde Prime, they represent the classic villain that a lot of um our generation when we're younger, we're just used to that much complexity, you know, our parents' generation, they're just used to good and good, bad and bad, and that's kind of it. Um prone and con to that. It's simple. You know, you have this idea you don't have to really think too much out of the box um, you know, when you only want to see the good guy prevail. That was a very classic hero trope that we were brought up on. It's now, you know, as we're getting older and we're seeing that not because just because you think the two, you know, the hero is the good guy doesn't necessarily mean the hero is the good guy. You see the villain, you know, doesn't necessarily mean that they are the villain. So there are different dynamics now because we see ourselves in both humans and villains, and we know that there are different categories, like characters that kind of help promote who they are, their coming of age. And so now we expect to see backstory. We expect to see growth, you know, from how we are when we were in high school is not how we are now. We've grown. So we always want to see what that character development is so that we can have a better understanding of who they are, whether they are, you know, a tyrant or whether they are, you know, this you know, being of supreme nature. We want to know the backstory. It's not enough for someone to dictate to us who is good and who is bad, because that is all perspective. Um, so with Ford Prime, he's just classic bad villain. There's really no character development at all. So for us, we need more. We can't really grasp on why he is the way he is. But with the diamonds, they are these beings of perfections and they have a superiority complex, but they earn that right because they are, you know, gods. Um, so I do like the diamonds in the way that even though they don't have to listen to lesser life forms, you know, they've basically created lower life forms to a degree, but they are at least willing to listen a lot more than horde prime. Horde prime just won't give a damn, who just killed to be done with single homemade sandwiches. But at least at least the diamonds, you know, they will listen to Steven Universe, even if it's just because you know Steven Universe is technically pink diamonds, at least they'll listen. Or Ford Prime won't give a damn and just tell everybody just to be done with it. So I will say that um I do appreciate the complexity of the diamonds much more than the villain trope of Ford Prime. So awesome.

SPEAKER_08 58:27

Thank you. And last but certainly not least, Paul.

SPEAKER_07 58:30

Um, the diamonds. Um because I I think that there's this a layer of complexity there that you just can't compete with. And I'm wondering from what I know of what happens eventually in She-Ra that it seems more like it's Adora's story and Catra's story. Um, than like Steven is the the whole point is like to end it's this you know millennia-long saga that is can somehow at least that part of it gets a bow tied up around. I think particularly Pink Down Diamond. I know um you and I, uh Gwen, we we would talk back today, like when I first started watching, I was like, oh my god, I think Diamond is the worst, like in in season two. Like, wait a minute, I know there's more, but she seems like the worst. And not because I thought she was like evil, but because it was like, okay, she she she bears like she does not she does not accept any responsibility for the people who she engages emotionally. She just goes from thing to thing, but including like you know, like with Pearl, Greg, Steven, the other diamonds, like it's just she just oh look pretty and runs. And and she doesn't accept everything as an experience for her, but she never really stops to think how it can make people feel it's all about her pleasure and what she wants to feel and what she wants to do next without really thinking about what she how she interacts with other people, other personalities. She doesn't think about that. I feel like the movie made her inch her more toward the evil side um with how she left poor spinel.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:08

She left everything in there for her.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:10

But I think this is where the complexity comes in, though. It's like throughout the the main series, like it's hinted that the diamonds all amongst themselves have a very dysfunctional relationship. And so, you know, they would throw pink diamonds in in the cell when she did stuff that she didn't want to do. And so she, even though she did stuff that was bad and ultimately, like, you know, like ravaged the part of the galaxy, you know, she was trying to escape. You know, she was trying to escape stuff. So I just like how I feel like with the diamonds, yes, I'm comfortable calling them villains, but I think that every like even villains who are like real life, villains in real life, have a reason why they are the way they are. You'll likely find some type of of trauma that don't excuse them, which I think that somebody is further point that you know they still did some really messed up shit. And it shouldn't be like, oh well, I learned better now, yay, you know, but this is what this cartoon is. But um, there's just a level of complexity there um that like I don't see how you tell Steven's story without talking about the diamonds, whereas you probably remove Hordack. Well, you can't definitely not necessarily Horak, but you can remove a lot of the protagonists and still have much of She-Ra um still there. And so to me, that's why I think, along with just me liking um Patty Lapone, you know, um it's just uh you know, that's why I give my nod to the diamonds.

SPEAKER_08 1:01:40

And for my final thoughts, I'll say that of course I'm I'm leaning more towards the diamonds, but I also want to say that I think that the last season of She-Ra needs its own redemption arc. Um, because I think that all the work that they did with developing villains in the way that Steven Universe did, with, you know, like I said, with like Catra, with Shadow Weaver, with Hordak, all of them got a chance to redeem themselves somehow. Catra and Adora finally, you know, were able to mend their relationship into what it truly needed to be or what it truly was and manifested in that way. Hordack was able to actually make a friend and reconnect with that friend, have a personality and have a relationship of his own. Shadow Weaver was able to reconnect with her old student who she was actu who she actually had favor for and redeem herself in that way. So she was able to, you know, bring herself back to a person that she used to be before she converted over to the horde. Um, so I think that horde prime was the largest mistake. I'll say horse horde prime was the largest mistake of Shira, only because it was careless in so far as they had set a present for what they already had. And Suchi, I'll hand it back to you.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:51

Why thank you? Yes. So I'd like to thank each and every one of the panelists for coming and giving their feedback, their individual views on the topics between Sheer and Steven Universe. Um, didn't see the day when all of you would agree to move over to the Steven Universe side. Very random. Um I do believe Miss Skittles will come back next week and feel some type of conflicted way about this decision. Um, but I'm sure we will come back to another topic regarding one or uh the either um show. But uh that is the end of this particular episode. Thank you all for being here. Thank you all for listening. Uh, please tune in next week for the next episode of the Blurred Spectrum Podcast.