The Blerd Spectrum
The Blerd Spectrum
Looking for Black Faces: The Good, The Bad, and the Popo
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The Blerds dive into the depths of skin tone and the tone of Black skin in nerd media as they navigate the representation we want; the representation we have; and the representation we need.
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Welcome back to the Blurred Spectrum Podcast, everyone. We're really excited to uh see you. Or listen, have you listened to us? Yes. Have you listened to us again for another week? This episode today is going to be based on uh blackface characters in anime, mangas, video games, drama, just entertainment in general, with a lightly sprinkling of stereotyping and a uh maybe heated on 350 uh in the oven called code switching. We actually had another conversation that we built up about the differences between code switching and coding, which we'll get into momentarily. But let's go over a couple definitions just slightly so people can understand which one is which. But after we before we do that, let me introduce our panelists for today. So, starting with myself, Suchino Shogun, we have The Doctor. What's good, we have Miz Skittles, we have The Black McCoy, we have Kaze, yo yo, we have Shampoo bracelets, yo, and we have Seyone.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_03So I want to allow some of our panelists to kind of give some brief definitions on these particular topics. So let's start with Miss Seyone, if you can give us the definition of blackface.
SPEAKER_01Blackface is when you use a character, whether it be in any type of media, such as art, um cartoons, what have you, TV shows, and you make a character appear black, even though you are not black yourself. And a lot of times it is a caricature of what black people look like. It is to make fun of, it is to be derogatory on purpose, it is to be hurtful, even if the person intending to do so doesn't think so. It's basically wearing a mask on what you think a black person looks like on the outside, and also adding characteristics on what you think a black person would act.
SPEAKER_03Kaze, could you give us, well, I'm sorry, thank you, Sayone. Kaze, could you give us a brief definition or even your personal one on code switching?
SPEAKER_04Uh code switching is uh pretty much when uh uh is the realization that uh that your blackness isn't accepted in all the venues that you need to uh participate in to survive. So you so you take on your different particular uh facades that you need to and switch between them so you can survive. And that's you know, that's at work. You know, certain uh certain maybe certain sides of the family, you know, maybe certain groups of friends, it's you know, it's it's whenever you is whenever you realize your blackness isn't isn't isn't isn't gonna be accepted or isn't gonna be uh it's not gonna help you get ahead, then you need to uh you you need to you know you need to switch up and uh act accordingly.
SPEAKER_03Thank you, sir. And then shampoo bracelets. We were talking a little bit earlier about uh coding and code switching, and you're about to go into a definition.
SPEAKER_05Yes. So um, and this is also let me put this out there, my definition. Um when I when I hear coding, when I hear the difference between coding and code switching, I'm thinking coding is like which I hate to give out one character now, but I I'll just use this race pretty much. Um anybody who's watched Dragon Ball Z, you can kind of see coding in the sense of how Namekians are displayed. When Namekians to a large extent represent Africans, to be honest. Um and not just African, I'm not even saying African-Americans, Africans, right? It's it's like when you look at it, you're thinking a whole continent. Um, there's another character which I actually was going to choose a character uh group, but I'll use that later. But um, that's what I see coding, is when you use a character to display a race that you don't necessarily want to use, but you want to give off an idea of. Code switching is pretty much very much like in a professional environment, like how I talk here is not how I talk at work. When I switch up my voice, switch up my actions, my mannerisms, all of that changes when I go out to work. So what y'all see of me now is not necessarily what would be seen in me from a custom from the customers I work with or anything of that nature. They see a different person, they get they get to know or hear a different voice or hear see a different type of speech. Whereas where it's almost like saying a person that uses the bonics normally when they're in their home sentence, the bonics go out the window and they talk like a college grad when they when they go somewhere else. That's how cold switching works.
SPEAKER_03I think that's an excellent, I know you said that was your definition, but I uh hearing it like that actually makes a lot of sense. We were talking about that um moments ago when we were discussing actually Piccolo and a couple of other characters from other cartoons and anime, um, but specifically talking about an entire group of individuals. And that's actually interesting. A group of individuals who they didn't want to specifically represent in the cartoon or anime or the show, and by having them be either a different color or being a different characteristics altogether. Yeah, completely different characteristics, but it's kind of not necessarily obvious, but based off of how they live, based off of how what they do, based off of their mannerisms, they can be perceived as a group of individuals or a nationality that is living in real life.
SPEAKER_05Another way to use it also is pretty much people use coding when they don't want to be classified with stereotypes. Whereas we can make them green, give them antlers, you know, and then we can still give them huts and all that gastro geographic type stuff, but now it's coding. So you can't necessarily nobody actually look at them, or you could look at them and say, oh, that's just Africans, but somebody, they're always gonna have those people who aren't as bright or don't see it in the same way, and they're gonna be like, oh, you're just you're just baiting, that's not Africans, da-da-da-da-da. That's how coding works.
SPEAKER_03They were wearing turbans, they were living in huts, yeah. Exactly. It was like they had very northern African um clothing, very uh kind of Arabian uh type of.
SPEAKER_05It's like they were jumping back and forth between two races, yeah, just to hide, but they were hiding it behind these green people with always. So it's like that's how coding works. Coding is literally just hiding.
SPEAKER_06I'm inclined to want to rename it ethnic coding, because that's what it sounds like.
SPEAKER_05A lot of a lot of times that's what it is. And like we say coding for short, but a lot of times that's exactly what it is, ethnic cloak, coding. That's all it is.
SPEAKER_01Oh no.
SPEAKER_03Okay. The black McCoy.
SPEAKER_07Oh, no, that was that's just what I was thinking. It sounds like like I and uh like I as because I was like um because when we were talking about it earlier, we were talking about coding and code switching, and I thought that coding was supposed to be short for code switching, but it it sounds like the it sounds like more of a wider um practice of what we what we when we talk about coded language and when we talk about like um kind of um more those like unspoken kind of interactions that come between people um and the things that we don't really add context to, but place them in a certain context if that makes any sense. And like ethnic coding is is just uh like a media representation of that. Like we will create this kind of hodgepodge of different um cultures and ethnicities, well, knowing full well that these are where these things come from, and then kind of I don't want to say misappropriate, but then put uh a mask of you know, some sort of like kind of fantastical or imaginary or you know, non-real kind of color of like someone's skin onto it just to excuse the practice of taking an entire heritage or an entire civilization and culture and people and their practices and their history and placing them into some into a vessel that is more that makes manipulating them that much more well, it tries to divorce the the the accountability from manipulating them because now you can say, oh well, it's not X, Y, and Z, but it's very clear where you pull these things from.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_09I do have a question.
SPEAKER_03Um sorry, go ahead. The doctor.
SPEAKER_08Oh yeah, so you know, I was just gonna say, I think with coding, it's interesting because in a sense it can be used for some file that's like good or bad in some ways, where sometimes coding can be used to deliver messages about racism in a way that is palatable for people who like who may not either may be resistant if they actually see the racial groups depicted very directly. So, you know, for example, like if you're doing a message about like, oh, well, systematic racism is wrong and whatnot, and it harms black people in these ways, but they see like, oh, well, it's just about black people, and that feels there's some natural resistance to that among white people that may get, you know, gets reinforced by society. But if it's about, oh, these are fairies, you know, and this is a fantasy land, and you know, it's kind of clear that fairies are being used to represent black people, but it's still delivering that message about racism is wrong. And that's, you know, really that's that should be an effective way sometimes to deliver anti-racist messages, you know, when that's done in with the right nuance and whatnot. Now, the flip side of that is it wants to be used to just stereotype people, but still have this kind of way to fall back and say, oh, well, these aren't actually black people, like this is an alien race. So, you know, like I'm sure we'll talk about teleforms later, but uh I think it's uh it's it's on the same exact and I can see it on the one of the classic examples of that. Like, oh, you know, no, there's no racism, because you know, yeah, these aren't black people at all. You get that, they're just aliens, but like, yeah, clearly these are black people, like that's obviously what you want them to represent. And that's where coding can be just used to deliver really racist messages. So, you know, it's all about like what the coding, what kind of purpose the coding is serving as far as the larger messages of you know the creator and whatnot.
SPEAKER_03And then Sayone, you had a question?
SPEAKER_01Um, it was a question and more so kind of like a personal experience. So um, you know, my culture is Nigerian and Jamaican, but I was born here. Um, I was just brought up, you know, with a cultural background, you know, of foreign parents. But I think people think I'm coding because how they see me, how I talk, in their head, they have an image on what African is, so to speak. So um it was just kind of, I was kind of thinking, I'm like, you know, sometimes people think that some black people are coding because in their mind they think this is what black is. So me being African and Jamaican and American all the same times, there sometimes is a separation on how black is your blackness. Like if you really are African, then you should have an accent. You know, you don't have the certain features to have somebody tell me you don't really look Nigerian. So you should kind of, you know, you act black American. That's what people have been telling me. Or, you know, if you're African, then why don't you kind of dress African or act African, like Nigerian, so to speak. So it's just weird. It's not like this is kind of how I was brought up and you know, this is how I am. But some people will also look at you like, no, this they're telling you this is how you should be acting. You should be acting, yeah. Exactly. And it was just very interesting, um, you know, thinking about growing up in, I guess, in a two different world, so to speak, you know, that I am black. But it's, I guess you're coding you people think this is how you should you're supposed to be coded. You know, this is how how you talk, so you are black American, or this is how you act, so you should, you know, you have the name, so this is how you should be as well. It's just a very, it's a weird kind of, I guess, world I'm in, so to speak. I think a lot of uh black people who also have foreign parents as well in America kind of deal with that as well in a in a weird, strange way. Like you're not coding, but people think you are coding. This is how you should be, this is how you should act, this is how you should talk. Or when they find out your background, then how the their vision of you is different. Like that's weird. You know, I thought that you're like us, so you should act like us. Or you're a Nigerian, oh, that's weird. I thought you should kind of talk to us because you are with us. So it's very strange because you're just trying to be your you're being yourself, but they're they already put you in boxes already to define your blackness or you know, your validity of how you are black. So that's where coding can be strange too. It I guess is how people could perceive you as well, even though you're not even doing it, so to speak.
SPEAKER_03I I think uh and I I have very similar experiences as that uh with that as well, being Nigerian as well, and growing up speaking the way I speak, at times more eloquent than even now, and having, you know, people always mispronounce your name and you being in certain environments where, you know, it's not that I'm afraid to say that I'm Nigerian, it's not that I'm afraid to say, you know, my parents, you know, were not born in the US and I was born here, but there's such a, like you said, you're you're you're immediately categorized and you're placed in certain boxes based off of what you say, how you act, who you are, and then where you're from or where you're supposed to be from. And if you say, you know, you're Nigerian, oh, where's your accent? Oh, oh, and then they start speaking to you in, you know, whichever dialect that they would like to, or whichever language, and you're supposed to immediately either reply or understand in that particular um language. And it's, you know, for me with the code switching, it's I I don't have a code switch. Like this is how I talk on the podcast, it's how I talk amongst friends, this is how I talk at work, this is how I talk with family. There are certain words I may use that that individual group may understand better than a different group. There are certain words that are appropriate for the workplace that are not appropriate. I'm sorry, appropriate for home that are not appropriate for the workplace. But for me, um, and it's kind of uh I've had this, I've actually said it earlier on, you know, in the podcast, you know, I've been called the white Nigerian or the White Boy Nigerian because of how I talk and how there's no, there's no separation. So, you know, because of the idea of code switching, because of what environment you are in and who you are around, there's an assumption that people are acting fake, phony, or fraudulent when they are in certain environments and they're not speaking like the people who they they're they're assumed to be speaking like. And I believe Miss Skittles was about to uh kind of chime in regarding her heritage and how people perceive her as well.
SPEAKER_02So um, yeah, definitely the same with uh being being of like Afro-Latina background, the the automatic assumption, either either from both sides, um you have, you know, uh Dominican or Latin speaking cultures automatically assume okay, so you're not you're not really one of us because you you you know you don't speak Spanish fluently or you don't speak Spanish at all, or your last name is not your last name is not, you know, typical Latin last name. Um and and they just look at you differently, like like why are you pretending to be uh like straight up American or or or you're just not you're just not enough. Um and then you have you know American people, I I am American, who who be like, oh well, um you just pretending to be exotic. Like what uh yes, my my bloodline is is absolutely fake exotic. My like what like what do we like for what reason do I do I need to um you know point out something in my blood to be to be considered more exotic um to you? And then, you know, why do I why do I have to prove that I am anything to anybody um because of how I speak or what I look like or or you know um my my family, I I don't have uh I don't have a deep background in that, uh unfortunately. Most of the stuff that I've learned about my culture, um, I had to learn it on my own. So um I I just don't feel like you know, we should we should have to prove to j joblo anybody right in front of my face, you know, that I am anything other than what I said I was.
SPEAKER_03And I I think all I I'm I'm sorry. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_02No, it's it's just it's just interesting to to hear, you know, other people's stories because I see it um and I and I know other people and I know it happens to other people, but it's it's good to hear, you know, other people's experiences and and then you can just be like, yeah, I know what you're talking about. And and I'm annoyed by it. And uh like I've literally had people, you know, who are of Hispanic descent be like, well, why is your last name Richardson? Because that's my daddy's last name. I've like I found it. Like I like I don't I I couldn't tell you. I mean, the I mean the Europeans came over and you know did what they did. So that's why his last name is like I don't know now.
SPEAKER_07I couldn't tell you someone asking what your last name was Richardson.
SPEAKER_02Huh?
SPEAKER_07Does someone really ask you why your last name was Richardson?
SPEAKER_02Yes. Like, how could how could you possibly last name?
SPEAKER_10How could you possibly be Afro Latina if your last name is Richardson? Like you're trying to verify your blessing.
SPEAKER_07Somebody that's all that's why actually have you add like one plus three and get four, that two plus two and get four. Like it's just it's it's the same process, just different. Like it it uh anyways.
SPEAKER_03It it it's it's everywhere, and I think that that might be even another topic to have as a podcast. And we'll definitely bring you that one in more detail because I've had people specifically ask me, you know, what my name is or to pronounce my name, and I'll tell them how to say my name and then say, oh, you said it wrong. My daddy taught me how to say my name. I think I'm pretty. I think I got it. I think I I think I under, I think I got it. But anyway, um, but yeah, so us us kind of talking about those particular topics is, in my opinion, um for going back to the top about code switching and coding and blackface characters and you know, entertainment, it's one of those things that we feel as though we when we see it, it's just as unnerving and it's just as embarrassing when you're thinking about why couldn't you just have in live dramas, why couldn't you just have somebody in that role? Why did you have to, you know, because you know, some of their defenses, I'm I'm kind of going here and there, but some of the defenses of individuals who do blackface or do coding, as the doctor was saying, is oh no, that's not what it is. That's you know, we're this is a completely different race. Or, oh, we weren't trying to do blackface, we were, you know, just showing the differences between these type of people. Or worse, they'll say, Oh, we couldn't find anybody that would fit the role. And I'm like, You couldn't find anybody like me. As many of us as on this planet, you can find out one person. You could find me. I could do it.
SPEAKER_02I don't like it.
SPEAKER_03It's it's always the defense is always either we couldn't find anybody, that's not what we meant, or uh uh you're you're you're taking this out of perspective. You're you're taking us away from what the real point of this piece of entertainment is about. And you know, that's why we wanted to have this episode was to talk about some of these characters and talk about some of these talking points in these different forms of entertainment, whereas though it could have just as easily been it could have just as easily been done a different way. And I'll start with one of the elephants in the room before we go into the more non-com uh common ones. I think there are two characters, and we've already mentioned one of the anime that they come from, that I think everybody within this podcast who's within the same kind of age range knows about, has when when if when they first saw, and I I would like to believe when we first saw both of them, um, we kind of took it as, oh, representation. But then as we got older, we like waited, well, one of them was representation, the other one not so much. But as we got older, we were like, wait a minute, this isn't right, because now we understood kind of blindfold out of our eyes. And of course, the first character is uh Mr. Popo from Dragon Ball Z. I think you as a uniform thing.
SPEAKER_07At no point did I look at Mr. Popo at any point in my life. Some people didn't.
SPEAKER_03Again, some people. I'm referring to I didn't say everyone, I specifically said most because I know that everyone's out there, like, hey, I did not.
SPEAKER_07I didn't know what the fuck Mr. Popo was supposed to be because he was because he was like what Mark was talking about. He's like he was like a he was a coded character. Like he was like his skin was like black, and he he looked like straight up picking any jigger boo like black face. Yes, but he also had these like also had these had like a turban and this kind of like Middle Eastern Indian and like Arabian kind of look to him.
SPEAKER_03So it was like he was dressed like the Namekians, but he was the only one that was all black.
SPEAKER_09Actually, you know what?
SPEAKER_07I think he was dressed more like a djinn.
SPEAKER_03You didn't see any of the Namekians dressed like djinns either?
SPEAKER_07I don't remember any specifically.
SPEAKER_03Oh.
SPEAKER_07I remember like when I think about the Namekians at large, I think I uh think of both of them dressed like Dende or like Kami or like Piccolo or Nay or Nail.
SPEAKER_03If you think about the ones that didn't have names, like Dende's brother, he was at one time he was dressed.
SPEAKER_07Dinde had a brother? Did he die?
SPEAKER_03Yes, he did.
SPEAKER_07Uh like I remember, I don't remember him because I'm like, somebody died, but people are always died.
SPEAKER_03But certain people and yeah, certain so they were they were uh specifically Mr. Propo. Let me go back to Mr. Propo. Specifically, Mr. Propo was like I feel like there wasn't e I feel like if you ever have gone on to uh paint or or Photoshop or any um design software and you tried to find the darkest color you could potentially find on a screen, and that's the tint, maybe even darker than that. It might have been the abstract space in the back of the storyboard because it literally was like darker than every like even the lines on Kame's Tower were lighter than Mr. Popo, like even the black to the contrast of the red in certain scenes were lighter than Mr. Popo. Uh the M for Majin on Majin Boo's uh belt and on uh uh Devil Man's face. Well, Devil Man was technically, you know, uh Mr. Hercule, but anyway, but even every line, every word, everything was lighter than Mr. Popo. You could stand in front of Mr. Popo and be black and still be lighter than Mr. Popo. Actually, there were certain episodes, earlier episodes of Dragon Ball Z that aired on Toonami for a period of time before they, you know, wiped him out, where they had black fighters and black boxers that were all black with uh large pink or red lips. They were a little bit more humanoid, and they actually looked very close to um, oh, I can't remember his name, not Raycombe. Uh what's his name? It was Raccoon. Oh, it was Raccoon? Okay. They looked very close to Raccoon um in in in uh uh uh art style, but like the only difference was they were chocolate color colored or yeah, colored, but their lips were still round and pink, still giving kind of that, as uh Miss uh Sayonet eloquently put, a very jigaboo-ish. Um so when we think of those types of characters, and then the second one I was going to say, which I don't know if many people know, I feel like everybody noticed, but I don't think many people noticed immediately. She disappeared from the face of the world. She was like, she was like a Sailor Scout that was only supposed to do one thing and then vanished to never be seen again. Um Jinx. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07They got so like Game Freak gotten so much. And they even tried, they tried to like lighten her, make her they tried to make her like purple.
SPEAKER_03They tried to make her purple. It was like, oh no, that's not what's going on. And then no.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, they never did really find a good place for Jinx beyond just getting rid of her.
SPEAKER_07Because of course, like the baby stage, and that's all you really got, and you saw the baby stage more than you saw Jinx.
SPEAKER_08Yep. Don't let purple, you know, change whatnot. It just looks like blackface light at that point. You know, it's not satisfying at all. Like so.
SPEAKER_03It's like I turned the contrast up on my TV and Jinx changed colors. I was like, okay. Uh but yeah, they completely like not only did they eradicate her from the cartoon, they then completely removed her from every game post-the first two or three, if I'm not wrong. Uh, so unless you trade it up from the original three, you're not gonna have a jinx on your console or on your handheld. She's just not there. Um, there was other episodes of Pokemon where they made slight slip-ups. Um, but uh we can do that at another time. Um, but there there's a variety of characters that we can talk about and kind of I guess discuss who do we feel were also blackface characters. Those two I know were the most prominent ones when we were younger, but who who are two other ones? Like one thought, I remember everybody to this day, there's still people who believe that Brock is black and he's not.
SPEAKER_00I thought he was black. I thought he was black yeast.
SPEAKER_03I know, like he's black black. Like South Asian at best, South Asian at best. Maybe maybe Polynesian, but like on a different episode.
SPEAKER_07We did, but it's more like I think there's this there's this this impulse as like black nerds and uh to to really want to adopt on the screen. PR cells, yeah. Who we so we will compulsively adopt people who aren't black at all um into being black just to latch on to that kind of representation that we technically don't have but want. Yeah, um that's pretty good. I think we we do it in so many ways like even we do it in so many different ways, and it's it it actually turns back to the conversation we were having earlier about some of the characters some of the characters from Doug who were recognized as black, some of which I didn't even know people were recognizing as black, and like I knew like everyone was like, yeah, Skeeter's black. And like I'm like, okay, yeah, I don't know what's going on with his parents, but yeah. Um I don't know. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02Skeeter. Yeah, go ahead. Oh, I I so I definitely thought Skeeter was black. The only that this goes back to like using coding um representation could be bad or good. Yeah, I did not like the fact that Skeeter was uh black and also like the fucking school bully. Like it was like, so why does the black sketer?
SPEAKER_03You think about Roger?
SPEAKER_02Roger was green.
SPEAKER_04Green disgusting, and we did not claim Roger. We did not claim Roger.
SPEAKER_10Roger was black. I don't know what y'all talking about.
SPEAKER_04Black is blue, he was green with red hair. Roger was sick. There it is. Honestly, going off his hair, he's probably closer to Latino.
SPEAKER_09I'm just saying it's a PLC.
SPEAKER_01I think Peter was black because he had a fade.
SPEAKER_09He did. He had a fade, and he was way too cool. He was too cool. It was the fade for me.
SPEAKER_01He had a fade. I'm like, oh, okay. If it wasn't the purple uh periwinkle skin, it was the fade for me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's periwinkle. What were you saying, Champlain Braces?
SPEAKER_05I was gonna I was thinking, I don't know why, but for the longest time I thought Roger was like some type of agent. Asian?
SPEAKER_09Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I just I just didn't think Roger, I didn't think Roger was Spanish, I didn't think Roger was black. I always thought he was some type of Asian.
SPEAKER_03I didn't think he was Asian, I just I just left him at white.
SPEAKER_07But like it was just always like that or something like all kinds of trailer tracks. I think he did live in the trailer. He did.
SPEAKER_01I don't think he looked like any race. Like I thought he was racially ambiguous. To me, he was to me, you know what I'm saying? Like a punk rock bully, but I never categorized him with a race.
SPEAKER_04That's the only character I didn't think he was punk punk rocker was a good thing because he was also inside of his hair skin.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it was saved, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Punk rocker guy.
SPEAKER_03Like I mean, I guess the reason why I immediately associated him with either white or a lighter race was because I knew for a fact that Chalky had to be white. Um, and because he was just a little bit darker than Roger, I was like, white or Latino makes sense. What'd you say?
SPEAKER_07I said ain't never met a nigga named Chalky. Chalky. We can get away with Keter because we we later had cousins Keter, you know, but you know that's a whole nother conversation.
SPEAKER_03Um but what okay, but we was one of the conversations we were having before the podcast was about BB. And I was saying I know individuals who specifically stated that BB, which was the rich girl who was kind of like Patty Manes' like pseudo-friend. I don't say best girl. Her head was shaped like a bee, but she was the rich girl who's like uh they own like half of the town. I was I was saying she was like uh um uh man, what's her uh not Kelly, uh Lisa from uh Saved by the Bell. Like she gave me that vibe. Uh like that's why I was saying BB was black, is because that she gave me Lisa's vibe from Saved by the Bell. She hung up with all the white kids in Malibu, but you know, her parents was rich, they owned boats and properties and all types of stuff.
SPEAKER_08This, you know, the whole like reading into representation or seeking representation where there isn't any. I think BB to an extent filled that design or that niche for like, oh, this representation of black wealth.
SPEAKER_09Yeah.
SPEAKER_08At the her skin tone is kind of similar to Skeeters, you know, who we already decided, yeah, Skeeter's black, and like it's kind of close, but we can like make her the wealthy black girl. Yeah, like I think those two factors really lined up and seeking that you know representation of like, oh, this you know, black, you know, the black rich girl, like, you know, which kind of goes against you know, this, you know, economic stereotypes towards us, you know, and fits in line with the other way we kind of assigned race in Doug.
SPEAKER_07So yeah, and it always falls. My black rich girl growing up was Muffy Crosswire. That's who my black rich girl was.
SPEAKER_03Muffy wasn't black. Muffy wasn't black. Francine was black. Muffy wasn't black.
SPEAKER_07No, no, Muffy was that like the really, really. Don't even try.
SPEAKER_03Nope.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I'm not done. For me, Muffy was that really like high yellow, like so racially ambiguous, like you're not even really.
SPEAKER_03Is this why you don't trust Buster?
SPEAKER_07What?
SPEAKER_00We're on Arthur now, right?
SPEAKER_03We are, yes. Okay, very easy to switch.
SPEAKER_07Very easy to switch. Buster was white as white as he could be. I almost thought you were gonna call him a snowbody.
SPEAKER_04But but go BB was also sassy, so that was another.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that was also true.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean, when you got money, you can be as sassy as you want to be. Uh yeah, but it's a certain amount of sass that you certain amount of sassy. There's bratty, and then it's sassy, and you associate sassy with us.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, she had her bratty moments. Now let's not get that wrong.
SPEAKER_07Muffy is checking off all these same boxes as BB, so I don't know why y'all I never thought Muffy was spoiled though. Muffy either broke the wall, you're like, excuse me, why do I have to hold hands with this secondary character? I was like, What were you saying, Ms. Gonna?
SPEAKER_02I'm saying I never thought BB was black, so I'm I'm definitely um with the black McCoy. Like, I never she never crossed my mind as being black.
SPEAKER_07She got on my nerves, but that was about it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, nobody in Arthur I actually thought was black for some reason. Like, I think as I've gotten older and I started seeing the meme memes with Francine, I'm like, oh, okay, they're making her black. So I was like, oh, okay, but and as a kid, I just thought they were just animals talking. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_07Like I never I never saw Brain was black. Brain was always gonna be black for me.
SPEAKER_03I think, and this again, uh I we can repeat this almost every single time we make a point about that wanting to see somebody on the screen who looks like us. When I originally saw Arthur, you know, I agree it was animals talking at first, Mr. Ratburn, Buster Bunny, all the rest, Baxter, sorry, um, and the rest of them. But then when I saw Brain, I felt a level of kinship because I felt some of the things that Brain was going through on the show, I was going through in real life, where, you know, you know, people will go to you for answers, people felt you like you're the smartest person, you were technologically savvy, things like that. I felt a kinship with him. So if somebody was to tell me, no, Brain was never black, I was like, oh, that's nice that you feel that way. But I know how I feel, and this is what he is, um, which is why I said the same thing about Muffy and Francine. But that's neither here nor there. And mainly because I had somebody, and I'm not gonna say her name, but I had somebody in my second grade class who reminded, who was not reminded me, who was Muffy incarnate, and that she was not black, um, she was not Latino, and she was not of ethnic origin, and she was muffy, but that's besides the point.
SPEAKER_04Um also also also I think just making quick comparisons, especially as young people. I mean, seeing as how if if you're gonna apply apply a race um to to something that doesn't necessarily have one, you're you're you're gonna you're gonna make the closest uh comparison you can. And so it's really hard to see something of color and then assume it's a white person. Yeah, you know, that's very difficult. You got a whole lot of color will to go through before before you end up in white. So I think it's also just a natural. Like like like full stop, every everybody who was brown, animal, alien, whatever, if you was brown, you you was a nigga unless unless unless you you otherwise very specific anti nigga tendencies. Like you like, you know, like you like you had, you know, you had slaves and you was, you know, you was rude and you was immensely uncool. Yeah, I was like, oh no.
SPEAKER_03Oh, they put you there just to fool us. Oh, I see. Like, uh like I and you know what? That's that's an even that's an even deeper uh point. Because like I'm going back in my mind of even shows I wasn't even originally thinking of. Like, let me let me take you back a little bit. Maybe some of you guys can think about certain things I say. Um, does anybody remember the children's show Franklin? Franklin the Turtle?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, Franklin's been.
SPEAKER_01I would say and his best friend was what? I thought I thought Franklin was black. I don't know why.
SPEAKER_03And who was his best friend though? His best friend was the bear.
SPEAKER_04The bear.
SPEAKER_03And then you have the the girl who was the beaver, and she was all uh sedid, and you're like, oh, there's our antagonist.
SPEAKER_07And then when you think about his friends the snail, yes, yes, that always wrote on his show.
SPEAKER_03Black people always putting people on their back. Anywho, um, so then you have uh think about Looney Tunes, Tiny Toon Adventures. I'm sorry, Tiny Toon Adventures.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's on my list.
SPEAKER_03Who is the black people?
SPEAKER_01Oh, the the mama who they say, mammy, the the um oh. She would she had this Aunt Jemima representation of what a black woman is, and that is nothing more than a fucking servant for white people. 100 years.
SPEAKER_04I mean, I mean, and she wasn't even a blackface, she was just a black slave, black, yeah.
SPEAKER_01She had her her head, and and the thing is, there's nothing wrong with a black woman wearing what she wore per se, but it's how they did it. They made sure she had fucked up socks. Yeah, always had holes in the socks, sometimes one slipper, not one slipper, her socks were dirty. Yeah, you see what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_03One stocking was up, one was down.
SPEAKER_01Right, she had disheveled, she was disheveled, she had on um like a hair wrap that she always wore all the time. Yeah, so it was a constant reminder. This is what a black woman is, and this is what you should remind yourself you are. This is the pinnacle on where she's gonna be, too. Like she's gonna be in this fucking house and she's gonna cook and clean for these people. That's just how you guys are just gonna have to take it. As a kid, yeah, it rose in the wrong way.
SPEAKER_03It's jarring because real and to piggyback off that, she that same character was in so many different cartoons at the exact same time. That was around the time where it was slowly dying out. But if you think of cartoons like Tom and Jerry, uh uh like um like all the taxer cartoons, um uh the early, early Looney tunes, like they always had that nana, that Hannah Barbaro Hannah Barbera cartoons. They always had that mammy, that nana, that uh uh maid-like servant who was coming, who's in and out of the kitchen. Um, like uh we talk about it all the time. Uh the the black lady on Tom and Jerry, uh back before Tom was Tom, his name was Jasper and she was in the kitchen. Jasper! Jasper, you better stop messing up them dishes. She would never say messing up my house, she would never say messing up my kitchen. She would say, You better stop messing up what I just cleaned, you better get out of that food I just made. And that was always what she was never showing any sense of ownership. Why? Because it wasn't her house.
SPEAKER_01But look at the generation, look at the generation that it came from as well. Um, you know, this was in the women cleaners are not racist for the 50s 60s around this time, 30s, it was even earlier than that, 30s.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so like 30s. Yeah, we just never she doesn't she was just never updated. Never.
SPEAKER_01Wow, and that was it. Because at first it was just her ankle, you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_03Yeah because that was all we still because you're looking at smaller creatures, and all you can see is the bottom of her dress or her ankles or her shoes. Eventually it went up to her waist. I I was honestly, I was hoping that like uh cow and chicken, they just did she just didn't have a top torso.
SPEAKER_00I was hoping they just kept it at the bottom because that was the best episode in cow and chicken when I see that they have no fucking top half. I died last year.
SPEAKER_03I was like, great.
SPEAKER_00Um where are you talking from? Your belly button, you ain't got none.
SPEAKER_03You don't want to know. I know you don't want to know this motherholder. How how many people thought Plucky was black? I'm sorry, from Tiny Toon Adventures.
SPEAKER_00Plucky the duck.
SPEAKER_03I can give it the Plucky.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the duck.
SPEAKER_08For me, the only reason I kind of thought it was that, you know, he's basically represented like Daffy Duck, essentially, who, you know, and it's literal like blackness. So I think that was the only thing, but as far as behavior, I don't think I ever made any link between you know, with Plucky Duck and being a black person.
SPEAKER_07I Plucky Duck for me was black mostly because of Plucky's younger sibling who kept flushing stuff down the hole. I think that was it, because that that was that problem reminded me of like I guess myself and like other like black kids I saw, like little black toddlers I saw growing up. And it's like the the inquisitive nature, the thought, the talkativeness, the the innocence, like all of that comprised into like just this little green duck. I don't know. Would be that black character out of there for me. I don't see a lot for me, I don't see uh too many other black characters that stand out in Tiny Tunes because it was like what Arthur would initially was supposed to be really was what Tiny Tunes was for me. But even though like Babs and Buster, like those were clearly white characters, right? Like those like they like they're I guess who was I talking to? Who was I talking to? It was like It was the someone asked me about some if some characters were like oh it was like if Wilt um and a couple other people were black and I was like Well Wilt from Fossil's home from Imaginary Friends, he was voiced by a black person that that motherfucker's black and his creator is also black.
SPEAKER_04And the person he's based off of is a child.
SPEAKER_07And the person he's based off of is black. That's the whole thing.
SPEAKER_03So it's like if you really trying to go, he kinda is. I mean, El Duado obviously is a Hispanic, large Hispanic hairy man.
SPEAKER_01Blue was I don't know what the hell blue was, though. I didn't categorize him with any race.
SPEAKER_04He was blue. I I mean honestly, uh the the level of white, listen, the level, the level of shiciness uh I think to blue, I I definitely associate with certain race. I won't say which. Oh let's let's keep that one, let's keep that one. Oh that up, the line. He's very car salesman to me.
SPEAKER_09Oh wow.
SPEAKER_03Um wow, uh so um talk so talking a little bit more about uh uh blackface, one of the categories that we had discussed before was uh characters not specifically um who have donned face uh or a blackface to uh embody black people, but also characters who were tanned, who we connected to. So what what are the differences between these tanned characters, as some people have called brown face, uh where, and this is I just recently uh read about this after the um uh what is it, the BA uh expose that came out where they said their editor-in-chief uh Don Brownface back in the 90s or the 2000s, where at a party he um uh he wasn't, I don't believe he was tan, but he was it was kind of what we uh um Champlu Racists was talking about with the coding, where you are embodying a specific group or stereotyping a specific group, but your face has not changed in any way, shape, or form. So he was imitating a specific group of individuals, so they called it brown face versus black face, because he didn't actually put any like toner or tan uh or black uh paint on his face. So, how do we feel about uh uh categorically the term brown face about donning the apparel or donning the stereotypical garb of uh black or POCs?
SPEAKER_01Sorry, people of color for those who are appropriation, to be truly honest. Um yeah, that's that's how I see it is appropriation, like Miley Cyrus appropriated black culture to get money. Um, you know, she and she did it to where she would gain a certain audience, get that money, and then go back to her white roots. So I mean, that is what, you know, I guess Brown facing, so to speak, because she didn't wear any black makeup, but she knew what she was doing. She knew how to play her audience, change up her music, change up her aesthetic, and also to show people that, oh, I'm around black people, I'm like them. I can, you guys can relate to me, but it was only for their dollars. And when she's done, she went back, you see, she went back to her culture roots. And that's what people don't understand is that when you knowingly can switch up different ethnicity or I guess representations of what you think the ethnicity is, and then go back to what your basic ethnicity is. And that's their problem. We can't do that, we're black. You know what I'm saying? Like we can't be, oh, I'm just gonna be white today, or I think I'll just, you know, appropriate some Asian culture, then go back to my blackness. No, you're you're black no matter what, unless you want to go into shadism, where you can, you know, which is a different, um, a different subject all alone. But you know, you can you can go into that where, you know, depending on how you look, you can either, you know, if you're I would say mulatto or but even still you can be of a lighter skin tone and you know you're you're you're mixed, you know, and then you're like, oh well, I'm just gonna straighten my hair to be with more so my white counterparts. But with my my family, my my black side of the family, I'm gonna keep my hair curly. So, you know what I'm saying? You can kind of switch that up because of your skin tone, you can do that. But then again, that's colorism, you know, and shadism on another another topic.
SPEAKER_03But yeah, that's that might be another episode. That's interesting.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, so you know, I think we talk about brown face, it can mean a lot of different things. So some people use it just to mean like essentially like blackface, but for other POC, but not black people. Some people use it for like more ambiguous forms of blackface.
SPEAKER_09Right.
SPEAKER_08But you're talking about with these like 10 characters who, you know, we kind of latch on either latch on to as black or use to deliver black stereotypes or like black mannerisms or whatnot. I think a big point, a big context of that is what is the context of actual black people in the show? If there is one. Because I think one of these is like for Brock's example, who's this like, you know, he's not black, but he's you know, this slightly more tan, you know, person in the show. It was so easy to latch on to him as black because Pokemon had no black people at all. So like he's the only one who's like kind of a little brown up until you got like Iris, you know. Yeah. You know, so it's yeah, so then in a situation like that, yeah, you're probably gonna latch on to Brock because he's the only one there who even slightly approximates like what a black person starts to look like. You know, so I think that's a big thing with um in general, like when we identify certain characters as black or whatnot, or brown, but as you mentioned, I think that context is a really big part of that, where a lot of the issue just comes from the fact that you don't have any real representation of black people in this show. You know, so of course, then you know, that context of this character being used to deliver that in a way that's maybe, you know, I guess neutral or maybe actively harmful becomes a much bigger issue. Like blackface can really only thrive in situations where you or in media where you don't have active black representation that's genuine.
SPEAKER_01And you know, just to to piggyback off of that as well, there are characters who I think black people latch onto that weren't meant to be black. Like um, like yeah, I didn't even think about that.
SPEAKER_09That's a big one. That's damn good. Ursula is a lot of people.
SPEAKER_07I don't know why black people latch on to Ursula, and I personally and I think I know, I think I have an idea as to why, and I still find it extremely fucked up and problematic in a lot of different ways. It's like because I think it's like they see Ursula as this like big like black auntie figure or whatever, and I think that that kind of takes a takes from those those like Mamie-esque like stereotypes and such and you know, and visuals that we've had for so long. And just because they they think that Ursula like fits into that somehow, that that somehow makes her black, and it doesn't make sense to me when she was literally drafted from like uh a white drag queen. And it does and and it it it's still very strange to me this adamant, you know, this this fight for Ursula to be black, as like canonically speaking, in the original film or just throughout. And I'm not saying that, you know, and I think that Queen Latifah as Ursula, you know, she was amazing and whatever, but like when I look at the original Ursula, I'm like, that's not a black woman in in any way, shape, or form, just because she's fat and hasn't like a black, tight, you know, kind of like fitted. Well, I don't know if it was I guess that was just her body. But because then I think there's no real distinction between those cynicals and the rest of her. So wow, she was naked the whole movie.
SPEAKER_09Um Yeah, I didn't see Yeah, all of them were.
SPEAKER_07Well Yeah, most of them were.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. I didn't I I never thought I never thought uh I I know I never had an issue with Ursula just just because most uh she had so much personality and she was literally dark colored again. If you're gonna make a distinction, you know, you you're gonna make you're gonna make the closest the closest switch. And so she was literally a a fat, sassy, dark colored person. I wanna also and also most people don't know don't even don't even know what a drag queen is. Because honestly, a lot a lot a large white woman don't act like that.
SPEAKER_07And it was like the but like even when it came to Ursula's like the like the darkest thing about her were well what what I'm now assuming isn't really a dress anymore, um, were her tentacles and what looked like a dress. And even her skin was it wasn't even really dark. It was just kind of like gray pale-ish because she was in these like darker areas of the sea. Like she wasn't actually dark skinned, but she was just sun-deprived. Because of where she was.
SPEAKER_03She was purple.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_03I mean not purple, but you know, like a lavender.
SPEAKER_07Like a lighter, like like lavender color, but even then. Yeah, but she didn't look like a white person.
SPEAKER_03Again, she didn't look like Ariel and King Trice.
SPEAKER_07That's what I'm saying. Like, even the way she does like her depiction is not that she it was more so that she looked like a white person who was deprived of light, if that's what I'm trying to say. And I think and it reminds me of the kind of like the conversation, a lot of what um Sierra N says about color palettes when she looks at different shows. Like Ursula's color palette was one that was supposed to be one that was supposed to be dark but mystical, but also um kind of evil in its own way. And the colors that they used to do so, they used black for you know the outfit and the tentacles that she had. She was in a layer that was in the depths of the sea, further away from the light and further away from civilization and further away from other people. And they gave her this kind of like paler, like kind of lighter purplish skin to which honestly, which you if you would see in like actual, real, like you know, in an actual person, she would look dead. Like no like living skin in any way, shape, or form looks like that. So the color palette that they used for her gave her this more insidious look. And even the purples that they incorporate, purple is more of a mystical color, and she used a person of magic, so that makes more sense in that regard. But overall, like the the tin of her skin, at least to me, didn't allude to any sort of like melanin. It alluded to like deprivation of light and of sun and of joy and of you know goodness.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but the the the Atlantis was nowhere near the sunlight, it was in the bottom of the sea.
SPEAKER_07But even when you see all those other characters in Atlantis, they still have more, they have light.
SPEAKER_03They have more life to their only person who went anywhere near the surface was either the scouts or Ariel when she wasn't supposed to, but everybody else was remaining on the bottom of the sea below the ocean surface, and the light that would trickle down to uh at the top of Atlanta was was uh uh was based off of a system that if you watch the cartoon, they set up specifically to make the coral glow, but most of that was already based, all of that was all already how the coral worked, but it was nowhere near the surface of the water, they were still on the bottom of the ocean floor.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, but I'm saying like if you look at Ursula and compare us, compare her to the rest of the people who lived in Atlantis, like the rest of them for all intensive purposes, look like regular white people, or some of them were brown, depending on if you lost the series or not and how they incorporated some look, like they pretty much looked like regular fucking people. Ursula didn't look like that. She her skin looked dead as fuck.
SPEAKER_01That's that's the color, I'd say that's the color palette of what people see as good and in and evil. And that's that that kind of goes into colorism a little bit. And I guess I don't know, black facing, but more so as the color palette as you pick darker colors to show malice. And then a lot of people will represent that with the darker skin tone or the I would say the devoid of lightness you are is the more evil you are. So I wouldn't say like I agree with you. I didn't think that Ursula was black, but because she was of a darker color palette and everybody else is white, you in your mind you think dark is bad. And that's how I always see it when it comes to shows, when it comes to art, um, you know, with spirited away. Everybody else was white or or fair skinned, but no face was black. So, you know, it's not that we automatically say that's a black person. It's there is always representation when it comes to art, and then people will always put that in their mind dark is bad. And that's really what it is. It's not necessarily Ursula is black. Because I never thought Ursula was a black woman because when she turned into a human, she was white. But she still wore dark clothes. She still was a dark person, you know, even though it wasn't by race, it was by color. So when you walk around and you see people, you have a group of white people and you have a group of black people. There is always an inherent fear of the darker skin tone, and that is black, that is of a dark palette, that is of a darker nature than white. Only a couple shows uh or movies will have the lighter skin person be the villain. It's very rare, but there are some because we could pick and choose. But, you know, Spirited Away. Um, there are also other other shows where, you know, the villain is of a darker skin tone. So, you know, even when it goes into shows like beauty, I'm sorry, yeah, Scar, you know, or darker skin tone. And then that's that's a thing. You know, if you really sit back and look at it, you you start to pick these villains. Every single villain that you possibly've seen has worn either dark clothes or have been dark in complexion. So people already think the bad guy's a dark guy. You see what I'm saying? And it's not even, they don't even have to be black. They could be a dark skinned Indian person. They could be a dark-skinned, um, you know, Chinese person. They can, it doesn't matter. It's just that dark is dirty, dark is bad. And that is the that is the representation. And then what are we? What are what are black people? We're black, so we're automatically dark and dirty. And that's kind of the the thing that we see constantly in media. It doesn't have to be cartoons, it could be in movies, it could be the television shows, it can be anything that is visual. That is what people always see, especially with the baby doll test. Um, you know, um, I think that was yeah, the baby doll test. There was a black girl, a little black girl, and and they they asked, you know, which baby doll would you prefer? And she kept looking at the white baby and the dark baby, and she picked the white baby because in her head in her head, as a little kid, she knew dark was bad. You see what I'm saying? So, and it doesn't even have to go with the race. It it's like color and art, it it plays, it plays an image in people's heads and emotion more so than people think. If they really just kind of stop and just analyze it, it there's a lot of unpacking.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. And like I even went to go, like I went to like Google pictures of Ursula and you know, the rest of Atlantis. Like, even when you look at pictures of King Triton and the rest of you know his daughters and stuff like that, and some of those like civilians and stuff, they all look like regular ass white people. And even Ursula just looks purple, like and not even like dark purple, she just like has a lighter purple to her skin.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Or I'll say the the more humanoid parts of her skin because now I I can't I can't erase the fact from a line that she's been naked the whole movie. Um thinking about it.
SPEAKER_01She had a little sweetheart, you know, design on a boob. Not she wore a tentacle dress. That's how I think.
unknownBut they were the naked things.
SPEAKER_04She was naked. She was naked. I'm sorry. I keep thinking about it. Oh, yeah, but didn't uh uh the cartoon uh gave Ariel a black sister, didn't they?
SPEAKER_00They gave her, I think.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Did they really?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think the cartoon, the Disney Channel, uh I think I think it was a black sister. But but but yeah, but we just we just had a we just had a whole conversation about how green people and animals were black. So I doubt I wouldn't bemoan anybody who thought Ursula was black.
SPEAKER_02Um but I I would say I feel like people may have thought I've never thought Ursula was black, like she's an octopus, that and and she was one of those characters that I never placed uh a color on. Um I I don't know why, but I can definitely see why people thought Ursula was black because of her mannerisms. Um just I I mean, the singing, the way she spoke to Ariel, like she just wasn't like I and this is this would probably be um a a bad coding if you want to look at Ursula being black, uh she's a villain, and um, you know, her whole goal is is you know, collecting souls. So she her to me her mannerisms definitely were not that of a a white person. Um just just her her she she had a certain swag to her that was just different from any of the white characters and the little people come along with their own little flare residents.
SPEAKER_07I mean attitude from you not about to get the kind of attitude from her like a regular white person, you gotta get like a yep, that's why they based it off of a drag queen. That's why you get that kind of attitude like that. Right.
SPEAKER_02Well, I didn't even know that it was based off a drag queen until you mentioned it.
SPEAKER_04So I mean, obviously, and even a lot of even a lot of drag queen culture and that, you know, a lot of that, you know, comes from a lot of blackness too. Because even so even that reference kind of you know kind of accidentally leads you to that's true. If you don't know what drag is, then you know, then what else are you what else are you gonna compare that to?
SPEAKER_08Right, definitely, you know, and I think with Ursula, you know, because I also never really saw her as a black person, but I think the reason why it's so easy to read that and why, you know, she is kind of a easy, I guess, medium for blackface related, I guess, stereotypes or tropes, is that everyone else in Atlantis is so explicitly white. And that's the really critical context. Like everyone else is very clearly a white person. So when you have a deviation from that, it doesn't even necessarily have to explicitly say, oh, well, this is clearly a black woman. It can just be she's not clearly white, at least not as clearly as everyone else is. And then that's where you start to look, that's where you get into the messages of, oh, this person who deviates from whiteness in some way is, you know, well, she's also evil and she steals souls, and you know, she's manipulative in all this. I think that's where then on my aerial contract. I don't do a good business.
SPEAKER_04That's that's a whole different uh episode because Ursula Ursula was a great businesswoman. She's a great business and and and she did, you know, and she and she ain't do too much wrong to like the third act, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_07But uh I mean she didn't do anything wrong because she decided to, you know, grow and try to kill people. Yep, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_08Even before that, she did sabotage when she was about to get that kiss. Like that was a thing. Like she had a float of Jetson like rock the boat so that, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I'll give you that one. That's true.
SPEAKER_08She was definitely good at hiding, you know. I wasn't hiding it, but a long time, but no, she was she was evil.
SPEAKER_03She was evil, I won't lie about that. But if in the contract, it did not say she wouldn't try to interfere.
SPEAKER_09Right. She's a very no, she didn't read it.
SPEAKER_03All she heard, honestly, it the contract might not even say that I would give you your voice back.
SPEAKER_00I'm sure CBS receipt paper songs.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, listen to her daddy next time.
SPEAKER_07You remember the the kiss the girl song from Little Romane? And I I you ever wonder what it was actually like for the prince to be in that situation? Because Ariel's the only one who can so like she could hear the song, but he couldn't. So just imagine being in that situation here, and it'll go into the back.
SPEAKER_03Sounds of the ocean in the swamp.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean, it probably didn't sound like nighttime because the crab obviously wasn't making a whole bunch of action. He wasn't making a noise.
SPEAKER_07I mean louder, but I'm just a bit like they went in on that song, so I'm assuming it got louder. And at a certain point, like, is it really romantic for anyone but her? Because he's the one who's like, oh, I can hear all the notes.
SPEAKER_04Uh yeah, but he's uh he he was a dude on a boat uh with a girl he's trying to post. You think he found out the water? He don't need he don't need a whole bunch of ambiance, he really didn't by saying we just be sticking their dick anyway, right? Uh yeah, he thinks they just do that to knock out girls behind dumpsters. So wow, like many dressing up. But no, another really good example uh of that was that. That the great perversion that's the Avatar movie.
SPEAKER_09Oh no.
SPEAKER_04So that's that's whitewashing. So no, no, no, no, no. It's not just whitewashing, it's both because he's he he made the fire nation dark. The fo was the is an Indian is the Indian dude from uh Slum Dog Millionaire. Yeah, yeah. So he so he not only whitewashed, he also brown faced the Fire Nation who are fucking Chinese. Which is which is even more amazing because M. M. Night Shadow Pong is Indy. So it's it it it is it is so uh the movie is a giant offense.
SPEAKER_02It was yeah, that's about the yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_10But super super irrelevant brown face, the the the the bad nation brown face the shit out of the bad nation.
SPEAKER_04I mean how how many examples of white face and brown face do you have that's so blatant and recent?
SPEAKER_09That's true. That has to be the best one.
SPEAKER_03I didn't watch I I I didn't watch for that.
SPEAKER_04I I watched that one. Oh you watched, I love myself, so all the shit we try to make you watch.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I don't I didn't watch it in its entirety. I I literally watched Talking Points, so I had something to talk about, but I didn't watch it in its entirety. Oh, okay, okay. Uh, I wouldn't do that to myself. Um, I as you know, I don't like watching movies as is, so not gonna waste my time.
SPEAKER_04Uh now I've seen some video essays too. There it is.
SPEAKER_03So, um, do we have any other key blackface characters that we wanted to bring up that we maybe have skipped over, didn't think about, wanted to point out, um, in any way, shape, or form?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, one. Yo, the cast of Steam Universe.
SPEAKER_07So I've been thinking about that this entire time.
SPEAKER_05So roll cast. So all the gyms. Every gym.
SPEAKER_03Everybody but Steven and his daddy. I mean, that's every gym. That's closer to the city.
SPEAKER_04Every single gym. That's closer to your coding thing than black faces.
SPEAKER_07It's closer to coding, but um, Estelle, when Estelle was at BlurCon last year and she was doing um a panel conversation, um, she was talking about how Rebecca Sugar um intentionally made Garnet black because he was thinking about the the most powerful leader of the Crystal Gem, like the one who was you know calm headed, intelligent, powerful, um, and the one that people turn to when they look when they were looking for leadership. Um, and she said that she basically said that there was no one more perfect for that position than a black woman. So it when it came to Garnet specifically, Rebecca Sugar intentionally made Garnet a black woman. What about Amethyst though? And Amethyst, Amethyst, I don't think it's interesting because I saw I saw an issue with uh one cosplayer online one time because she was white and she cosplayed Amethyst, and it became this whole thing because a lot of people see Amethyst as black, and I I completely understand why people see Amethyst as black, especially when she fused Legarnet and then made Sugar Light and Nicki Minaj voice sugar light that one time. But they couldn't afford Nicki Minaj another time, so they just you know left that shit alone. Um but no, I I can with Amethyst with characters like Amethyst, um Bismuth, um, Bismuth is black to me because uh Uzo Aduba that she she was no, she's black. You ain't changing that for me. But um I think that when it comes to Amethyst, it's mostly just how she looks. Um and I would definitely say her lip her lips, um the way her lips are animated in a similar way that sapphires are kind of animated, but different. It's a very like it's a very thin but strong distinction at the same time. Because I think when it comes to the gyms as an entire race, there's a lot of there's a lot of differentiation on their features as a whole.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Um but there are some specifically like amethyst, like Garnet, and like Bismuth, who well, Bismuth although doesn't have like any no, Bismuth has clocks, never mind. Um there are like these very like there are these more coded features about them, or uh, well in Garnet's case more explicit. But with Amethyst and Bismuth, there are these more coded aspects about their character design that really turn them into black people rather than or make them be seen as black people rather than actually, you know, being just gentlemen.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I would I wouldn't cast Steven Universe into just into the same pool as the rest of this conversation because most mostly the the conversation encoding and and blackface, a lot of that comes from uh like lack of uh it comes from like ignorance and and like lack of intentionality, and that's just not what that's just not where Rebecca Sherman was coming from. And even even the example of amethysts, all the other amethysts, it's not like they all look just like her.
SPEAKER_07Even the amethyst, like the actual amethysts look more like Jasper for the most part.
SPEAKER_04Uh yeah, yeah. So yeah, yeah. Um yeah, I wouldn't, yeah, I wouldn't uh I I wouldn't apply that because most of most of the issue isn't is this is this secretly a black person, it's what what other what are you communicating with this with this with this person that you've that you've attached these black you know features or you know the uh codes to.
SPEAKER_08You know, I think with um with Stephen Universe too like tying into that, it doesn't have the same context of overwhelming whiteness that these other a lot of the other shows where this is an issue has. Um one example being Garnet is explicitly black. Like it's not just something that you have to re-breat into, like she looks black, she has the fro, like she's very clearly explicitly black. But also has black people in it, you know, like the town has black people. So, you know, it's not like the same, it's not that same issue of, oh, well, we only have this alien race dog example of blackness. You know, and you know, as Kylie said, like it was clearly very informed and intentional, you know, and that's why you don't have like, you know, it was, you know, I think it was done in a much more positive way than we see in a lot of other examples.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they weren't stereotypes, and that's what I like uh liked about Stephen Universe. Um, it wasn't a black stereotype, so to speak. They were black people. So we felt comfortable, you know, relating to them. We felt comfortable cosplaying them because it wasn't a caricature of who we were. It was just kind of who we are, per se, in you know, in different ways. And that's something that we weren't used to seeing, you know, at all. Um, in any type of pop culture or any type of uh cartoon or anime.
SPEAKER_09I think also Backyard's was another unique one, uniquous, you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00Like, that was after my time.
SPEAKER_04Oh, you need to Tyrone, I tell you.
SPEAKER_00Oh, they they had they didn't have black skin.
SPEAKER_03They didn't at all.
SPEAKER_00You knew when they were black, they had uniquous.
SPEAKER_03You although you need to was pink, she gave you the Saz. She gave you the Saz. And Tyrone, I I was waiting for Tyrone to be like about a new Tyrone, but it was he was cool.
SPEAKER_04He still had he, it was it was voiced by a black dude, so I was still fine with Tyrone. I was okay with that. I didn't I didn't watch this, but I'm single whole black all black cast.
SPEAKER_00Back guard game was a great show.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, because we were still adults and we know that show, and like that's a show that was no not all of us. I was gonna say not all of us, not all of us, but you know, it was a great show because you know you had black characters well supposedly because they were all dinosaurs, or I don't know what the fuck they were.
SPEAKER_03They were they were all animals, they were animals, moose, yeah, but like imaginary penguin, hippo, was like some sort of some sort of bug.
SPEAKER_07Was he a bug? I don't know, like she was she was some sort of bug.
SPEAKER_03I thought she was a hippo, okay.
SPEAKER_04No, no, no, it had no that no, this thing has the antennas, uh not not even in the right part of the head.
SPEAKER_07Pablo was the penguin, Pablo, it was multicultural, they had it.
SPEAKER_02The only reason why I know what backyard agains is is because of my nephew, but it's uh it was definitely like oh okay, yeah, I see y'all with the little yeah.
SPEAKER_03Okay, I'll let you watch this one.
SPEAKER_00Okay, you mean I loved it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you had singing and dancing, you know, that's the difference between Backyard again, and I would say how Betty Boop was portrayed, how um other characters were portrayed, and that I would say that um 1920s, 1930s type of uh cartoony, you know, the black guy dancing with the cane in his hand, um, you know, versus so you can have you can have black culture without it being offensive, you know what I'm saying? And the backyard against you had singing and dancing, but it wasn't to make fun of all the niggas dating dancing around. You know what I'm saying? These were these were educational kids and inquisitive kids, and they wanted to help one another and grow while singing and dancing, just to, you know, to have a very light-hearted, happy feeling for other children to learn from, versus, you know, Betty Boop over sexualization of black women because she was based off of black women, you know.
SPEAKER_04Um Betty Boo was black, she was whitewashed, like literally.
SPEAKER_01She was whitewashed, yeah.
SPEAKER_04We were going to touch on that next week. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's it. Yes. But, you know, so that's just kind of, I guess, a contrast on how to do representation right, so to speak, than to make black people look like this is all y'all niggas can do. You can just tap dance and sing, and that's just kind of the pinnacle of your success, where you can actually learn and grow and help children learn as well. Um backyard against Tri Gun. So that was the one I really want to touch base on. There was um, I forgot, a light, a light-skinned character, but I don't think she was meant to be black, but I think we latched on to her. Um she was kind of a tall chick and she was light skinned. And um loved her. Yeah, like she she kind of she and the girl from Ten Shimuyo, they I tried to latch onto them as black, but they were also around the time of the Gangoro phase in Japan, where you had the tan skin and the um the makeup. So they it was a more of a phase, like a makeup phase as well. But I think a lot of black people try to latch onto them, but they weren't meant to be black. They were just like again, yeah, they were on that phase, the gangaro phase in the early 2000s where you had Japanese women really tanning their skin, having very blonde hair. It was more like a like a I would say character of Barbie, so to speak, but they were tan skin. So those are also characters that were black-faced in a way, but they I don't think they're actually meant to be black people. Well, black people try to latch on to them because that was the darker tone women or people that we saw in the anime.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, same as the girl from uh Outlaw Star and anime, honestly.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yes, yeah, and and that's why I was kind of going with the more tanner characters and us trying to figure out, you know, who were they, what were they like to this day? Do we know if Ayn was black? I not Ayn, sorry, I didn't mean Ayn. Um thank you, Ed.
SPEAKER_02Ed. No, I I have no idea.
SPEAKER_03I love me some iron, that's my mind.
SPEAKER_02I have no idea if Ed was black.
SPEAKER_03Um I I I mean so I don't think so, but because uh if it was if it was like modern time or even feudal time, we'd be able to discern. But the fact that it's futuristic, we can't tell, you know, is she from a different planet? Is she from Earth?
SPEAKER_04Is she from our yeah? I think she was specifically ambiguous, especially. Yeah, I think they probably were black people. That's true.
SPEAKER_03You saw her father in the first scene, looked mixed, yeah. That's true.
SPEAKER_01But the cyborg, he was black, he was, you know what I'm saying? So they knew who to make black. I think Ed was very ambiguous. You know, she was darker than the cyborg guy, I think. She was the darkest person on the show, the darkest person on the show. But you know, they because I think they're non-binary as well, in my mind.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so I I mean I didn't know what I uh who Ed was until I think I was in my 20s, until somebody actually like said, oh no, that's a girl.
SPEAKER_02I was like, oh I definitely, I definitely, I mean, back then, um, I definitely consider her a girl, but like growing, I mean now, yeah, we we we're in an age where you know it's okay to be non-binary, yeah, and I'm definitely uh they them their pronoun. Like yeah, so I don't know, I didn't know what Ed was.
SPEAKER_00I didn't know what's perfectly fine.
SPEAKER_01Ed wasn't feminine in a way, but was the masculine, but I don't I did that was I would say as a kid, I was very torn to categorize Ed as a general.
SPEAKER_03I was too. I I really I didn't I I try my best not to because it's not like I was talking about Ed a lot, but every time I saw Ed, I was like, huh. And I was captivated to see what Ed was going to do next, mostly because they were very humorous, but also because I don't know who this new person is, and I don't know how to like I'm confused and don't know how to pinpoint exactly where you're going with this character. And because based off the art style, couple beep up in my mind was so old, like I was like, oh, I didn't know about it. I can ask. It came out in the 20s.
SPEAKER_05Who can ask? I think the artist did that on purpose because they actually said what she was in one episode, but then every they it's like you had to catch that one episode. Yeah, and then they did on purpose, so you never knew ever again. Like you didn't say one episode, you just didn't know. Like it was like and they left it up to the United Nations. I actually like how the artists did that.
SPEAKER_03Um I have three questions. Um, one first question goes towards our cosplayers, but anybody can answer it. So, one big question um that I know a lot of individual have individuals have about blackface is the, and you kind of touched on it, say and a about the appropriation. When you know, we've had we've had this conversation before about how uh people of color or cosplayers of color want to cosplay lighter or white characters or Asian characters. This is whole uproar on the interwebs. Uh and the question is when it's the inverse, what is the appropriate way that you would recommend for your cosplaying brethren or sister or people to handle playing the more ethnic people of color or darker skin characters? Because their mindset is, you know, all these characters are white, all these characters are Asian, you can't play them because you're darker. But now that we're starting to get more anime, get more cartoons, get more characters who have now evolved, uh, the anime are now evolving into having larger people of color casts. Let's say they they gravitate towards certain characters, what is your response to them when they want to, but they know they can't touch that sensitive subject of blackface? How should Miss Skittles? How should they handle um that that particular uh uh uh that that subject? And I'll allow Miss Skittles to go first because she's ready to go.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so um, so as if some of y'all may know or don't know at all, uh listeners, um, I am co-founder of Urban Anime Lounge. Um I have been in this group setting um of black creatives and in general uh nerdom for what four is four years now. We have discussions like this in group all the time. And the general consensus uh is usually black black people do not care like white people do um to to like you you cosplaying a character. I have no issue with you cosplaying Storm. Do not tan, do not paint your skin, do not change your accent or whatever you're trying to do. Like is is it's very simple. Just don't. You can you can be this character without the extra uh cultural um what am I trying to say? What's the word?
SPEAKER_07Don't do blackface. That's it. You can wear whatever you can wear whatever the fuck you want. We do not care. Don't do blackface. That's it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that and that's basically what it comes down to. Like nobody I I've I've seen white people um cosplay storm, I've seen white people cosplay characters from Overwatch, uh, Symmetra, or or any other yeah, uh I'm um multiple characters who are who are brown um and do it correctly by not changing their skin tone. Um I've had to tell people who um who are outside of I I wanna I wanna say just I feel like it's just American people who who just feel like they can do what the fuck ever. But there are other cultures who are not aware of the the issues of black and brown face. Um for example, I was a part of a um a bleach Black Lives Matter uh cosplay group thing, and uh a lot of the uh cosplayers that were a part of this um video were from different countries and they were not aware of you know not uh not doing brown face or not doing blackface being offensive to people and uh to black people in America. Um the the person who uh tried to pull this group together was initially from I want to say Taiwan or something like that, um, but an Asian culture. Um and he he was not aware at all when he was giving the rules, like, okay, I want you to want you guys to um, you know, do this Black Lives Matter thing. And if you could pick a bleach character that's specifically, you know, tanner than the others, and then he proceeded to say, you can tan your skin. And I was like, nope. Don't don't tell I was like, don't tell these people, don't set these people up like that. And then I talked to him, you know, sidebar, like, hey, I was like, I I don't know if you're aware, but in America, you know, black and brown face is not cool, it is not a thing, it is never okay for you to tan your skin to match a character for accuracy that is browner than you. And he was like, Oh my god, I'm so sorry. Like over here, you know, it's not a thing for us. So, you know, he he was very apologetic. And um, and then he went back into the group and told them, okay, scratch what I said, do not do that. And and these other cosplayers are, you know, from Germany and Italy and things like that. And then, you know, it's like, oh, like y'all super white, so please do not please do not cut, you know, come out here with your your your Ricci, you know, out here with the super, super tan, okay? That's that's not the move. So, um, so back to the the main point. Like we like black, I feel like black people in general do not mind if you cosplay the character. Just do not do not do brown face. It's very simple. Like, don't be out here um tanning your skin or or attempting some type of African accent to or you know, to to be that character because the clothes, the hair, the contacts, whatever is there. We see you. You are you are storm, you are Yurichi, you are whoever that character is, um, without changing the color of your skin.
SPEAKER_07You can absolutely wear the costume. You can't wear the ethnicity, and that's where people get themselves fucked up.
SPEAKER_02Right. I mean, I mean, you don't see you literally don't see black people out here doing that.
SPEAKER_03Let me let me pour I don't mean to cut you off, Miss Gittles. But to I want to make the question a little bit more specific for Sayone and the Black toy. So for the Black Boy, you recently uh did a cosplay a couple of months ago, I believe, uh, where you were um one of our admirals from um One Piece. Um and obviously this gentleman is of Asian descent, uh, but you know, he's not African American in any way, shape, or form. You did not whiteface, if you want to call it that, you did not bleach your skin or anything like that. Uh, you made the character your own. So how are you able to do so? And what would you tell to other individuals? Because as Ms. uh Skittles had said before, it is not, and you said yourself, it is not normally black people who have an issue with it. It's normally uh white people or other ethnicities who have an issue when you are a character who is not your skin tone. So what would you tell to other individuals who want to be characters like uh um say Luffy or wanted to be characters like Naruto or wants to be other characters, but of course they're your skin tone darker or a little bit lighter.
SPEAKER_07My my my guidance to them would be to look at what makes those characters stand out in the world that they already are in. So the things that make Pujitoda stand out are one, he's blind, two, he has a scar on his face, three, he's also an admiral, and he's big as shit. Um but that's pretty common in One Piece niggas just be big as fuck for no reason. Um uh even giants. And they're not giants. I'm sorry, wrong topic. Anyway, um no, but like, so when I thought about that Fujitoto cosplay, I thought about what Fujitoto wore and the things that were iconic about his presentation. And those two things were that he was blind and he had a big ass scar on his face, and so um, quick sidebar, don't buy full blind context, buy mesh white context, you will not be able to see otherwise because they are blind blind. Um and two, don't actually cut your face. I didn't, but you know, that's okay. Um, like when you think about like black cosplayers who've like done people like Naruto or Sasuke, like they didn't have to lighten their skin, they may at most may have gotten contacts, gotten a costume, or gotten like a wig. If someone's cosplaying Chad from Bleach, what are the things that look at what Chad wears, look at what his arm does. You don't have to darken your skin to be like Chad. Because Chad's skin color isn't something that you can take on with integrity. It's not, it is a part of his character, it's not what made him who he is, if that makes sense, or it's not what made him iconic in that storyline. It was what he could do. And part of the reason we love a lot of these characters is because of the abilities that they have. And so embodying that, embodying those things about them in some way is usually what you need to aim for. Like go for Chad's arm, go for Fujitoda's scar, go for his his blindness, go for Sasuke's shoting gun, go for Moderator's Renegon, go for um go for Kilua's like lightning, go for his go for his white hair, go for his blue eyes, like go for Gone's intense strength, go for when he lost his shit and his hair got really long. Like there's a lot of things that you can do to be a character that don't involve you actually changing your physical presence. Um sorry, I tried not to get really, really deeply followed off on that moment. But um, no, you don't have to change like the really factual things about you. Like you don't need to change your skin color to embody um like um Bartholomew McKuma. Like just dress like him.
SPEAKER_03Get a jacket, get a Bible, and a hat.
SPEAKER_07With ease. Get a jacket, get a Bible. At the most, you might need to give Jerry curl a wig. That'd be about it. Oh yeah Don't forget the wig. But yeah, that that would be my guidance. Like you you look for the features of the character that make them that make them badass or make them noticeable. Their skin color isn't what makes them noticeable. Um, although I don't mean to say that in the in this like weird spirit of like their skin color means absolutely nothing. It does mean something. But if you want to cosplay a character, you're not cosplaying them because of their skin color. Right. Cosplaying them because of who they are.
SPEAKER_03Yep. So, Miss Seone, your specialized question is you also recently did a couple, well, you've done quite a few cosplays in the last couple of weeks. Girls booked.
SPEAKER_09Dylan!
SPEAKER_03Uh, but one I was specifically comment on or ask you this question based off of is the one that you uh also featured on our Halloween YouTube video, uh, which was when you cosplayed his Lobo. And obviously, Lobo is not African American. I mean, granted, he has dreads, but that's an old mother conversation. Uh, but he does have white skin. And although he's an alien, other people would say, well, he's white. I mean, yeah, he's white. He's like ash white, but he's not like, you know, white, you're white. So what would you do? So what would you say in reaction or response to individuals that say, well, Lobo is white, you shouldn't be white facing yourself?
SPEAKER_01It's a great question. Because when to be truly honest, I knew you're gonna go there. I thought you were gonna go for a movie death, to be truly honest, because I was going back and forth. You see, that's the thing, like black people, we more think about this shit than white people do in my head. Because like I was really going forth, like, should I cosplay this? You know, because I'm like, I don't want it to be offensive, but I'm like, wait a second, this is not a white person, this is a damn literally white alien. You know what I'm saying? So so my perspective was different. And then when I when it comes to body paint, I like to make my characters look black as much as possible. I'm not not saying this, I have anything against straight hair. I personally don't like straight hair for me. So I try to make my characters as black to me as possible. When I when I'm a little girl, I'm like, oh wow, she has curly hair, she has kinky hair, you know, she has full lips like me. So that when I cosplay, I think about how do I make them black? Anything that, you know, you see a character, you're like, oh, okay, the white long straight hair, you know, you generally think that's a white person per se or a non-black person per se. That's the first thought you think. So I always, majority of all my cosplays are curly hair. If not, it's that, you know, auntie Nissan Ultima short pixie cut, you know, that I did for the Sakuna cosplay um that I did recently. So, you know, this is an Asian character. I don't know, racially ambiguous, but they weren't black. So I'm like, how do I make my shit look black? Like, my little stylist stuff real quick and get a little pixie on the, you know, knee along 19, you know, 90s feel. So I try to make my characters look black to me. Like if I were this black, if I was this character as a black woman, how would I look like? And then um the same thing with Lady Death. You know, I was going back and forth and forth because Lady Death actually was a white woman for real. And then, you know, when she died, you know, she was white, but it was there was an obvious difference from when she was a white woman versus to when she died, you know, she was actually of pale skin because she's dead, and that's the thing. So that's how I go, I really think about the character because I'm like, how do I do this to not be racially insensitive? That's number one. And number two, how do I make this person black, even if they're not black? So the character has white skin, not racially white. She actually is devoid of pigment. You know what I'm saying? So that's why I did Lady Death. And then I'm like, I don't want to do straight hair. I don't want to do that. I'm gonna make this this woman have huge, curly, full, volumptuous, Afro-ish curly white hair with full red lips. So that if you look at me, you're like, okay, that's not a white woman. That's not a person that's trying to be a white woman. This person is playing the character, but explicitly has black features. So that's how I kind of go about um my characters. Every character I do, you know, I've done Morgan as Delaney. She is not a black character. But I made sure that if you look at me, you know I'm black doing Morgan. And you know it, I have my wings. There's certain elements that you take. The blue hair, her hair wasn't a curly afro, but I did it anyway because as a kid, I'm thinking, what would I want to see? What would be the representation that I'd want to see as a child? So that's how I go about my cosplays. You know, I don't change my skin color. If I do change my skin color, I always in my head think, is this going to be racially insensitive?
SPEAKER_09Right.
SPEAKER_01And if it is, I don't do it. I just leave it alone. You know, um, there's so there's certain aspects that always look about, but like Miss Skittles and like the Black McCoy says, you always take elements. You don't like a character for their skin color. That's not why you like them, you know, unless they are a different color that's not humanly possible, like blue or green or purple, you know, with Lore Olympus, that's you know, completely different. But you actually like them for their clothes, for their attributes, for their personality, or for their styling. So that's how I usually go about it.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Now, thank you all. That was excellent information. I'm sure our listeners will definitely appreciate that. And I may have put this in a couple other forms so they can uh hear your advice because I know I know that will help. Uh, the doctor, shampoo, uh, shampoo bracelets and kaze. So I have a secondary question, the second question for you guys. Uh, so uh Miss Seyone brought up a point about appropriation amongst certain artists. Specifically, she mentioned Miley Cyrus. So when she said that, I thought about you know, care uh characters, artists like Justin Timberlake. And um, people have said for a long time, especially after that whole Janet at the Super Bowl incident, which I will never forget, um, that he is guilty of several levels of uh cultural appropriation. Um, so my question is how do we go about because one of the uh one of the big things about uh, and I'll just say African Americans uh from that I that I run into is that when certain people are guilty, obviously guilty of cultural appropriation, you would think they're, you know, I'm not saying boycott, but you would think there'd be some level of uh response to that action. So what would be the appropriate thing to do when such a action is done? Like Justin Timberlake, he did what he did and Janet got banned from the Super Bowl. Justin came back like two or three times after that, plus got all these accolades awards and all these types of things. He's also, you know, he's made music with Timberland and Pharrell and all these other people, T.I. and all these people using the music. Same thing with Justin Bieber, maybe it's just Justin's, I don't know. Uh, but what would you say about what would you say about those levels of appropriation? How do either black people or African American people handle it? Or should we just allow them, should we should we still call it cultural appropriation? And we can start with the doctor or a kaze or the other one, I don't care.
SPEAKER_08Okay. Um it's interesting. I think it's a very complicated question, in part because when you're talking about appropriation, it is a pretty broad spectrum as far as you know, like adjusting Timberlake versus um or like an Elvis Wussay. Like that's another good example. That's one of the classic examples of appropriation. Um Godfather appropriation. Yep.
SPEAKER_04Or outright theft. It's appropriation.
SPEAKER_08You know, at its core appropriation is that like that's what it is. It is, you know, kind of the literally like acquisition of this culture that's not yours. You're taking parts of it and then you're you know, then packing it in a way that you can take credit for. Like, I think where we draw the line with how bad that is is really situational. You know, like some artists do that, and like, but they also give opportunities to black artists, to other or other black artists, or you know, they work with a lot of black people. Does that make that better? I'm not sure. Like, it's a very, very complex question. You know, we think about like, well, what do we or what you know what should we do in response? Like, it's also complicated because we're largely not, you know, we're a piece of kind of the drivers of power in that situation. You know, so it's real, like even if um you got like black people to joy cotton, let's say Justin Timberlake and whatnot, would say which one that'd be logistically really difficult. I'm not sure how well that would actually work, but let's say if you really wanted that to happen, like you know, you would ever do that, like that doesn't necessarily disappear from the question of what long-term impact does it have on like you know, black or not blackface, but like appropriation in general. Like, does that make a large, long-standing change? You know, kind of these individualized approaches to or individualized responses. And I'm not a hundred percent sure if it does. I mean, I guess really on a grand scale it may, but that's also something that doesn't really exist right now, you know. Like when we had when have we really had a large-scale boycott of an artist?
SPEAKER_03I thought there was gonna be a huge one on DojaCat, but she's back in circulation. So you know, like I thought another one. But we'll come back to that one. I'm not a C. I don't want to get mistaken they started. She glared. So I'll let that one go for now.
SPEAKER_08It's tough. Like, it's definitely tough. And I don't think it has any easy answers, but um, I think being able to speak about it, you know, and give kind of light to some of these issues is a good first step, you know, to kind of like addressing them, or at least, you know, um making them better in the long term. I think it is a first step because of course you have to acknowledge something exists as an issue before anyone can do anything about you know improving it.
SPEAKER_03Okay. I'm sorry, go ahead.
SPEAKER_02I can't boycott just the house.
SPEAKER_10I would I would be one of those that'd be like Oogir. I don't know listening in the basement with a problematic theme, Miss Skittles.
SPEAKER_01Everybody has a problematic theme.
SPEAKER_10I didn't realize it was so problematic until today.
SPEAKER_03So wait a minute, wait, wait. Am I in the category? What would I leave here?
SPEAKER_00Wait, hold on. Right. I was like, oh, she's probably gonna just put it in the background as we speak. Listen, Crime River. No, right, that's my next room.
SPEAKER_03Um so uh I was gonna I was gonna say shampoo bracelets. So one uh uh kind of of course, like I did with uh uh Miss Kittles and say your name and the black McCoy, I want to kind of alter the question a little bit specifically for you, because um talking about appropriation and talking about how individuals can take hints of black culture and uh turn it into you know monetary gains, revenue, things of that nature. And then there is always the inverse. It's when individuals of color, quote unquote, are doing the same type of appropriation, or at least they're accused of doing so. Or individuals from different nationalities who are not African American completely, kind of almost a uh uh, as people call them, mugbluts, uh, are concerned. Now, there were some articles that came up a couple years ago about um Bruno Mars. Thank you. Uh Bruno Mars being accused of cultural appropriation. Now, I know Bruno Mars is of uh um um he's a Pacific Islander as well as has Puerto Rican Jewish right now.
SPEAKER_00I thought it was Filipino. Uh so things you learn.
SPEAKER_03Right, right. So what would you how how would you go about that conversation in terms of appropriation? Is it okay for him to do it? Or do you feel like he has been doing it? And I mean, he's disappeared out of the spot, like as of right now. He did like three or four features and then vanished.
SPEAKER_07So that's because most of his money comes from writing other people's music.
SPEAKER_03Also true. But not for my point. My point is, do you feel like that should have stopped him from making music, or do you feel like what he was doing was actually appropriation?
SPEAKER_05Was appropriation. I'm not gonna say, is he wrong for it? Nah, he just made his money. In fact, if any, if if anybody should be angry, it should be all of Motown from the early uh the 80s, pretty much. All the 80s, everybody that was part of that golden age of Motown, and Quincy Joe's should be at his ass right now. Quincy Jones got his money too.
SPEAKER_07Quincy Joe's got a lot of his money too. But that's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_05But I'm saying he should get his money off of Bruno Mars. That was the whole style that was sold. That was literally like a good decade or more of a style that was taken. Yeah. He was brought back in the 2000s. That was all that's all Bruno Mars did. Now, am I mad at Bruno Mars? Nah. I mean, if you listen to his music, like from Joe, you can always tell that he listened to that type of style for a while. He just finally started saying, you know, for all this slow stuff that nobody wants us to listen to, let's just kick it up a little bit. You know, he you know found that it was important and popular, that he took it living color and made a fucking talk out of that. So it was like, you know, it was like he made his money off of appropriation. Am I bad at a board? No, because hell, like we just said earlier, uh, white girl wreck ball, that was that we were talking about earlier, and then Billy, and then his father finally did it with little guys. So it was like, even though he talked trash about it for years, he said, you know what? Let me go ahead and get my money too. And um and at least, you know, Bruno Mars for the most part is kind of stuck around with the blacks. Uh like, you know, unlike, you know, like I can't remember her name, but we'll say a little orphanandy pretty much. Uh like she she ran when she had the chance to get away from the black culture right after she did that joke with Juicy J, and then realized, oh, we're talking Travis Scott. And he rolled on out. And then she was.
SPEAKER_03We didn't know that was coming after the whole uh uh Travis, uh Travis Scott, uh uh um dang, what's his name? I just saw him this morning. Travis Travis Scott. Is it Travis Scott? It might be Travis Scott? It might be continue.
SPEAKER_05But um yeah, but no, like she she stayed with us until it started getting problematic. And then she was like, oh, let me bounce up. Because uh another person that did it who nobody really talks about because we still like his music was Post Malone, white Abyssie. Post Malone from uh from the whole beginning of his career made music made black music, and then turned around and said, Oh, well, I don't listen to hip hop lyrics and just that. And then it turned around, it could take you top of those songs with the life of China and all the other black artists, and it's still appropriate. So it's like like I said, I can I can let fucking uh now I can't remember his name.
SPEAKER_03Justin Tipper?
SPEAKER_05Huh? Bruno Mars. Bruno Mars. I can let Bruno Mars go because for the most part he's always stuck with the culture in some way, shape, or form. These other people, they came in and came out. They they literally hopscotch or fucking double dust with the culture, and we accepted it.
SPEAKER_07So why would I look at somebody at least Bruno has some consistency? Yeah, exactly. Bruno had consistency in his own. When he decides to drop an album, when he decides to drop a single or decides to do some music with somebody, it's usually in the same style that he does always all the time.
SPEAKER_09That's true, that consistency.
SPEAKER_05And it was a themed album, like the whole album was that theme of yeah.
SPEAKER_09He heard of it showing his appreciation.
SPEAKER_00Even his show is appreciation, yeah. That's a difference.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that that's what I was about to say. When when I feel like when there like there's there's a I mean it's very slim, but I feel like there's a difference between appropriation and appreciation. And when it comes to Bruno Mars, I feel like his while it was still appropriate appropriation, he still I still feel like there was an appreciation there because it was the type of music that I I I've seen, like I've listened to, you know, interviews or or in article read articles related. To him and how he he you know started making music and and what he enjoys about music. And uh he said growing up, you know, that's that is the type of music that he listened to, and and that's what made him want to be an artist. So I feel like it's it's um it's an appreciation for our culture um and what he grew up listening to. Um and and I feel like the same goes for Justin Timberlake. Um he said he grew up listening to you know Michael Jackson. Yeah like these these artists are what inspired these other artists to to make music um that is a part of our culture. Um he could have easily you know stayed with InSync and made, you know, like boy band music or whatever, but I I feel like that's not where his heart was. It was never where his heart was, and that's why he continued to to make music with um people like um uh what's what's boy what's uh Timberland. Timberland. And and you know, and and then of course it sold because because it it was soulful, it was it was where his heart was, right? And you could hear it um in in the beats that they created together. So um, so yeah, I feel like there's definitely a difference between appropriation and appropriate appreciation. Um, because like you said, Molly Cyrus, uh Kesha, uh what was what's the other Katy Perry, they have all dipped in and out of our culture um and made money off of it.
SPEAKER_00Aggie azalea as well. Aggie azalea.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_09Let's not have that with those.
SPEAKER_01When it comes to appropriation and appreciation, there is a fine line between the two because they can easily merge into each other. But the issue is too many people love black culture, but then when black issues actually happen, they're nowhere to be found. And that's my issue. That's you you you have so much money off of our our dollars that were given to you. You know, we help build this career that you have. We've inspired you. You've lived and breathed how we move, how we are. But when the people that's actually providing your wealth are suffering, your ghost. That's the issue I have. That's the issue I have with most artists. I don't see a lot of those artists that use black money that we've provided them to actually use the money and have a voice, be an ally, so to speak. And so when it comes to non-black people, I've seen it more often than not, they take our money and they get the fuck out.
SPEAKER_03So I I I agree, but more than agree, what bothers me the most is not just them taking our money. It's when they take their money, take our money. When a situation occurs, it's one thing if they say nothing, it's another thing if they uh my sister loves uh like making fun of me when it comes to the statement, but it's kind of the Peter in the Bible situation where you know they ask Peter, does he know him?
unknownI don't know him.
SPEAKER_03Like, oh, uh, what are you talking about? Black people aren't stressed. Oh, what are you talking about? I don't do anything, I don't know anything about black people. Oh, uh that's y'all's situation, that's not my situation. And then there's even black people, it's not black people who are saying that who are like, oh, uh racism wasn't real, slavery wasn't. Is it real? Yes, it never happened. That's the 20s. That was back in the 60s. So those are my issues. It's it's when we give you our dollars, it's one thing like not saying that saying nothing is better, but it's like saying nothing still causes the situation to happen. Saying stuff like that where it's like, I'm I I have nothing to do with that, or it's none of my business, or that's y'all's situation, or it's not real, sets us back. And that's where my issue is is when you are saying things that are actively setting us back to the point where it's like people are listening to you, people are following you, people are taking your word as truth almost. And if you're saying these things that are one, untruthful lies or uh uh falsehoods, like things that are confusing in nature, then it's going to confuse people and cause people to believe something a completely different narrative.
SPEAKER_02That's Trump shit.
SPEAKER_03Disruption, thank you.
SPEAKER_02Trump shit.
SPEAKER_03Trump shit. Um, disruption, yes. So, but what I want to do is make sure I give Kaze his question. So, Kaze, along the same lane of appropriation, um we of course have talked about uh uh Justin Timberlake and we talked about uh uh um Miley Cyrus and we talked about all these different people. Now, what about the inverse? There are obviously, and I mentioned it a little bit in Shamflue Bracelets questions, there are obviously individuals in the African American black community who use quote unquote white culture, if they want, if you want to call it that. Um, pop culture is what they call white culture in some areas, technically, um, that use that to sell their records, to gain their money, to gain their support. So, what happened, what what do you say to those individuals, like the same, the almost inverse of uh or different narrative of the black McCoys question? When an individual is in uh is taking from that group, what do you say to them? Because for the most part, it seems like people are saying, you know, uh uh good uh good job, my good and faithful servant. But in reality, what would you say to those individuals who are taking the money from these you know pop culture fed communities and they're African American or people of color?
SPEAKER_02Get your reparations.
SPEAKER_04I said uh I mean that's that's that's interesting. Uh I'm can can you give me an example of that? Uh sure.
SPEAKER_03So um Stacy Dash. How dare you? I was gonna say Stacy Dash earlier, but yeah, sure. Oh yeah, I was gonna use it for a different for a different example, but that's okay.
SPEAKER_04Uh well no, we'll share example.
SPEAKER_03No, no, no. Go ahead and use Stacy Dash.
SPEAKER_04No, that's that's like full like race trader level. That's that's that that goes like so far beyond. But okay.
SPEAKER_03The example I was going to use was um Kanye before a couple weeks ago when he kind of switched back for like a brief second. Yeah, that that's who I meant.
SPEAKER_04I don't know if that's any better than saying. No, it's no, it's not. Uh especially when I think I think mental illness might be a thing on both sides. Yeah, yeah. But um I mean, honestly, I don't I don't have anything uh super specific to say to that side of the issue. I think I I think uh especially when you're in a big like mixing pot like America, I think the main thing to take from uh you know your art and and is is is is respecting and and looking and looking into all the all the cultures and things that contributed to that art. Cause because I can't because I can't sit I can't sit here and get and get conscious and be like this this boy who grew up somewhere else in the world who listened to the same music I did. I'm I'm not gonna lay I can't sit I can't lay lay claim and be like this this you know this music is more mine than it is there, especially when they've you know they've dedicated their entire lives to it. Whereas the only other connection I have to it is it's nifty and and the person who made it was the same color as me. But I think the important thing is kind of it's and it's gonna kind of go back to what you were talking about, is it's important not to uh uh dam, you know, damage or disrespect something that you're you know that you're benefiting from. And and you know, and that's oh oh and and just and and just to revise what I said earlier, I was I was I was I didn't read the whole thing, I was wrong because he's a mutt and it's too long. What Bruno is Puerto Rican half Jewish, and that Jewish is from Ukraine and Hungary, and his and then his mama was was Filipino, and then she moved, and then she moved to Hawaii into some Spanish in there.
SPEAKER_07What kind of generic storm born is so he was Filipino.
SPEAKER_03I was like, I was gonna say I know for a fact on his mama's side. I but I was like, it's in there somewhere, wherever it is.
SPEAKER_00I was waiting, I was waiting to re him read that list.
SPEAKER_04I'm like, this there, I was like, it was it was a paragraph, and I thought the paragraph moved on, and it was still describing his his muttness that I didn't know. But um, so like, you know, so so like you know, obviously somebody, a black person who's uh you know, benefiting off of you know, quote unquote, you know, white things indoor culture. I don't think there's anything really to uh I you know I don't think they well they obviously can't damage white culture if you know if if this if that if that person did anything wrong or say anything disrespectful, they would you know they wouldn't be taken as an example of anything, they would just they would just be personally marked down.
SPEAKER_03I mean they'd be marked down by African Americans, but what about the because like I I didn't want to go like full, full into it, but like I to add on, not add on to the question, but it's like a lot of the individuals who you can put into the category of the question that I gave are mostly the people who black Twitter is a great example, have said are no longer invited to the to the picnic or to the cookout. And we're talking people like Amarosa, talking people like Ben Carson, talking about people like um uh I already said Kanye. Or did I say Kanye? Well, Kanye, I did say Kanye. Uh um and and and uh uh what's his name? Ace A Rocky or Aesop Ferg, one of those two people. Like Rocky. Aesap Rocky, thank you. People who have during this time have specifically said, this is not my fight, slavery ain't real. Um uh racism uh is is only what you make of it, it's in your mind. Like it's you know, people who are saying things like that, but uh uh like people who who do the white chicks type of scenario where they'll not necessarily turn their face white, but they'll they'll they'll give to that group of individuals and they'll give into them until you know they accept them on the surface level, but still behind the scenes, you know, dance monkey dance type of situation.
SPEAKER_05I have a thing about that because the the fact that we have like say they're no longer inviting the picnic, yes, let's use the word cookout, but I don't even cook out.
SPEAKER_09I don't want the picnic. I don't want the pickup.
SPEAKER_05They're no longer involved in involved the cookout. I like how they were pointing out, but you never point out like um the creator of Love and Hip Hop, which I think is Mona Lee Simmons.
SPEAKER_03I mean Mona Lee. Sorry, Scott.
SPEAKER_05I think she is one of the most damaging people to what black culture has seen as absolutely a long time. And that's just because they're just like it's all cutery on this shooter. It's just it's just cutery that's cutery, guys. I mean it was I'm not denying that it was cutery in the beginning, I've said that from Jeff, but at least then it was like I can kind of like, I I guess you gotta, I can look at it as it wasn't so bad when it was like, I guess you gotta do what you gotta do, because I saw a lot of that coonery on like real world and stuff like that. So it was like it wasn't like I could be so bad at her, but then they start taking it to levels of real world that he takes to. So it was like, it was like, okay, now this straight, like nothing but coonery at this point. Like, I'm not even trying to get people to like even show a better side to it. Like, it's like it's just straight coons.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I won't, I mean, I'm not going to defend it. I'm not gonna do that. I'm going to say I'm going to say that the scenes on Mona's uh Mona Lee Scott's shows, the the entire uh lineup of them, the thought process behind them is to give people the opportunity to sell themselves, right? And I will not deny that there you do send producers and cameramen, oh, go and capture that, edit that part out, but put that part in, make sure they see this, and those types of things do enhance the drama and make it look even far worse. It makes it look like trash TV, as people call it. Um, but it does give the people the opportunity to showcase themselves and make a dollar.
SPEAKER_05It's a lot, but it's a lot worse than that. That's how like when you start to hear those people talk, when you start to hear the people that have been on that show talk about what really happens behind the show, what she'd be asking for, it's like got some wild shit that you're gonna do.
SPEAKER_03I've watched all of those exposes and documentaries. I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, exactly. Okay, cool, cool. Let's actually have let's have a reality show uh episode. Uh we're gonna have a lot of episodes.
SPEAKER_10Oh my god.
SPEAKER_03You're gonna skip a thing on sleeping that day. Yeah. But okay, we'll we'll talk about that in more detail. But Kazi, uh, if you want to answer the question now. Or the the modified thing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think I think most of those things you brought up was uh I'm I mean I can't I kind of see the connection, but I think it's less appropriation and more pandering. And and I think it's and I think it's from uh honestly I think I think it's just from hurt, you know, I think it's just from people who've who've who just felt either uh hurt by the people around them and it's kind of like a lot of, you know, when uh you know people you know people just like to categorize things. And if and if the category you put to all the people who hurt you is that all these people have been black, then then you start to, you know, you start to attribute a lot of negative things to, you know, to blackness. And you know, when when a lot of things is just like, you know, this is a human issue, not not this is what black people do, but you but all you know is black people. And and I think, you know, and I think I think that's a lot of what happened to Kanye, especially after a lot of his uh mental deterioration after his mama died. Um and whereas I think uh Stacy's thing is um she she reached she reaches someone as who who does who doesn't know black people. And and and she and she looks at and she looks at us and she looks at us as through that same lens as you know as a lot of people who who don't know black people.
SPEAKER_03And I I not to cut you off, I I I don't like using the Stacey Dash uh uh per uh um example only because of who her brother is. And it's like for you to say you don't know who who black people are, the brother's Damon Dash. Like he founded Rockefeller, he dated Ali, he hung out with Jay-Z, uh uh um uh Missy Elliott and all of them people. You you can't you can't just sit there and act like like those two worlds never interconnected. I understand what you're saying, but that bothers a hell out.
SPEAKER_01Stacey Dash, though, she's the epitome of what coding is.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01She is the the queen, the goddess.
SPEAKER_03She put up there.
SPEAKER_05She took code, she took code switching and literally made it a lifestyle. Yeah, like this type of way. Like what we were doing is just jokes, or like what we do going back and forth between work and avoiding stuff. She took it and made it like I will treat this like it's a small child that needs to be raised to be a great person.
SPEAKER_03That's how she must she she must be like 10 years pregnant because it's still gone.
SPEAKER_01She took that role and she and even Robin Gibbons. Oh, don't do that.
SPEAKER_03Wait, that's not fair.
SPEAKER_01I I maybe it's the personal, maybe just me, but I always thought that Robin Gibbons was coding as well. I always thought that to me was.
SPEAKER_03Wait, wait, Robin Gibbons. I'm sorry. I think she was code switching like a mother effort.
SPEAKER_01Like she really was. Like, you know, to me, she always had this higher than thou, those black people. I'm this person, but those black people, like she always had this weird type of safety dash type of vibe that I've gotten from her. Even from like alt watching the the 80s movies, yeah. Some people typecast themselves, and then I'm like, I really think that's how that person really is, and that's really how she wasn't all of those roles.
SPEAKER_04Yep, yeah. She was actually herself.
SPEAKER_05You know what's funny though? With Robin Givens, though I thought she was close to it, I really felt like Robin Givens was just, because of how Robin Gibbons was outside of her movies, I feel like Robin Gibbons was just used to being typecast and she just didn't want to fight. I don't think it was a thing of, oh, you know, I these are this is who I really am. I think honestly, that's the role that she was playing. Because you gotta look at some of the people she was with, like, she didn't have to be my types for a long time. She supported black dick for a long time.
SPEAKER_01But listen, you have plenty of people who fuck black dick who don't care about black dick. That is true.
SPEAKER_00That is true.
SPEAKER_01Just because you like the penis don't mean you down for the what's a top.
SPEAKER_08And that was like Stacey Dash, you know, even with her having, you know, her brother, like a lot of times people who struggle with a ton of internalized racism, which I'm sure she did, yeah, like exception for the ones in their lives.
SPEAKER_09That's true.
SPEAKER_08So, you know, that oh well, my brother's one of the good ones. She's not like the rest of them, you know, or something like that. Have you ever heard her?
SPEAKER_05Have you ever heard her make an assumption that Dane being one of the good ones? Like, she might look at her brother the same exact way as she looks at all other black men. That's what I'm saying. We never see her. Yeah, I don't really see her.
SPEAKER_08That's completely possible.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think I don't really see her closely interact with Dave Bass like that. Like we closely.
SPEAKER_02I just want to say I just want to say I was today years old when I found out that they was brother and sister.
SPEAKER_10When y'all said it, I was like, wait, you were shot.
SPEAKER_00You like you know who Stacy Dash's brother is? I'm like, girl, who?
SPEAKER_04I'm like, I mean I think what Stacy, I think what Stacy was doing was was so transcendent that it's not even coding anymore. Stacy has wrapped back around and is now appropriation because Stacey Stacy's values and and and how she presents herself and who she associates with is is so fundamentally white that that she now she is the one who is who is dipped who is dipping in uh black culture and then leaving when uh when it benefits her and you know and she's using her skin like as his past. But but for real for real, uh she's everything about her. This queens, I don't fuck with y'all for real for real.
SPEAKER_01Did you just call her? We basically just called her like a skin walker.
SPEAKER_04It is my kind of messed up. I mean, because the whole you know, the whole thing about the coat the coat switch is that you're you you're stopped, you know, you stop being who you are and you switch these like switch these lanes, but but but but what we are is not what she is anymore because she's she's she's sane to that.
SPEAKER_03I mean I feel like she she played that role in clueless and she never got out of it.
SPEAKER_00The role then maybe back in you.
SPEAKER_01I feel that this particular conversation helped me understand coding a lot better and categorize who the fuck is coding. Yes, C dash is coding. I feel like when when code switch you could turn it off, coding is you are living that shit until you die.
SPEAKER_03Living your association.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, she's living it. She living and breathing it. And it's like when you can't turn it off, that's who you basically have, like you said, you're no longer a black. You're appropriate in black culture, you're wearing a black woman's skin, and then you can't take this shit off. And that's just kind of until you really are a white woman, or in your mind, you are a white person or someone that's like not black. I'm non black. You know, those those those Negroes over there, the blacks, over yonder.
SPEAKER_03I'm not Mark Voorhees. Right. So um That's another one.
SPEAKER_08Like, I know. I forget which organization it was. I want to say BET, but I think it was another black organization she was giving a speech at. And hearing her, like in that environment, that felt like code switching me for her. This is not how you normally talk.
SPEAKER_03I've heard about Black Newsgirl.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, like so she really, like I said, she really has wrapped around where, like, if that is her real self, it's so far removed from every way she presents herself and everything else we see that yeah, it feels like, oh, this is like how I feel like, you know, when white people talk at black events and they change the tone a little bit or something to match the audience. That's what Stacy Dash sounded like there.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, she's appropriating. Uh no, I was I was about to say, uh, Stacy Dash reminds me of uh uh uh that thing they say about Batman where uh where like Batman is the is the real him and then Bruce is his mask.
SPEAKER_03I feel like that's what Stacey said. I thought that was Spider-Man, uh Superman that they said.
SPEAKER_05And Bruce Wayne is a mask that he's been putting on since his parents died.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04And it's and it's more it's true about Batman. Whereas uh what's the name from uh Kill Bill? He made that speech about Superman uh at the end of Kill Bill. But that but but it was but it was wrong. Uh uh David Carradina. Yeah, yeah. Like Superman is a uh Superman when he's written well is is a fucking cornbread, fucking white boy from from from Kentucky, and and and being an alien is is an accessory to to who he is.
SPEAKER_09You know, it's like he's like somebody who found out he's mixed, like you know, later in life.
SPEAKER_04But but but the core but the core and the and in the strength of why Superman cares about people so much is because he's a person. How dare you? He is not divorced, he's not divorced from us, like uh, you know, it was an amazing speech, but it was wrong.
SPEAKER_01I do have a question though, when it comes to blackness and code switching and appropriation. So when is it that you are black? Is it you know, because you look at Stacey Dash, she is a black woman. If we look at her by by if we're seeing her, she looks black.
SPEAKER_09Right.
SPEAKER_01But she really isn't a black person because she doesn't hold any black values, she doesn't support black culture or black people at all. She is, in my mind, a white woman. So it's done, as again, if you were to see someone that is that is not, I would say, virtually black, distinctive black, but are more black than she is, I guess that's kind of where a lot of people define what is your blackness, what makes you black.
SPEAKER_09Right.
SPEAKER_01And that's another thing when it comes to code switching and coding and appropriation. It's like how do you determine blackness, so to speak? You know.
SPEAKER_07Sorry, go ahead. Good finish first.
SPEAKER_01Oh no, it's just something that's it's an interesting question. Like, you know, as in you have a a fair skinned person, let's say someone who does not look black per se. Like if let me give you an example. If we were to use Halsey, Halsey, whatever the fuck her name is, she looked white to me. I did not know she was. Okay, yeah, Halsey.
SPEAKER_02Halsey.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03So Halsey. Okay, sorry. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. She she looks right. She looks white to me, you know, and paperback, so to speak, she looks she's a white woman. Uh Nicole Ritchie, I didn't know she was black at all.
SPEAKER_07I thought she was racially. Lionel Richie was just right there in the middle himself.
SPEAKER_05Right, but that's like uh wasn't that um Quincy Jones' daughter. Yeah, you know, the one who moved from the office.
SPEAKER_02Well, Halsey, Halsey is is definitely mixed, so she definitely passable as a white woman.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, she's very possible. But like what if she what if she was much more of a black woman than Stacey Dash? But because she doesn't look like it, even though she is black, so to speak, you know, how would we determine blackness? And I think that's something that I've always been curious about when it comes to saying this person is black. How do you is it by go ahead?
SPEAKER_02I feel like this question is the same, the same uh, and this is this is a completely different topic, but when it comes to when it comes to gender and sexual orientation.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I was thinking that too, and that was where I was gonna go, but then I realized we actually have to wrap up the episode, so we can't go there.
SPEAKER_02Right, but not today. It's like how how do you define how do you define what you're feeling on the inside, what exactly what you identify with on the inside uh versus what what we all see on the outside.
SPEAKER_09Right.
SPEAKER_07Um Sandra was talking, like it's kind of like when it's like there's this distinction between what the fuck I just said. There's a distinction between being black and being culturally black. Like there is a there is a set of shared experiences, there is a set of individual experiences, like you know, there's a set of shared experiences and culture and heritage. You know, there's a there's something there is something cultural to being black, that there is a distinction that there is that is very distinct from just having black skin. And I and when I write or when I speak about a lot of like um gender and gender-based and sexual, sexual orientation-based issues, like I always make a distinction. Like, there's a difference between being straight and being heteronormative, and there's a difference between being homonormative and like being gay. Like they're they're they're very like the words and the the words are there for a reason that they're just they're also distinct for a reason too. Like being queer-minded versus being like heteronormative to me are two radically different things. Like someone can be bi or they can be gay or they can be pan, but they can still be very heteronormative in the way in which they function in the world. So like there, it's like there's there's a lot of different pieces um to toy with when you start getting into arenas like that. And those those nuances start to get um more difficult, I will, I think, for a lot of people to to kind of handle or toy with when they start to move forward and try to navigate certain conversations or issues or problems. Because then you you start going from this honestly very black and white, no pun intended, actually pun very much intended, dynamic that um they had a lot of the world end. And once you start to break down these very, well, I'll say it in this way, I think generally speaking, for uh for everyone, when you start to fundamentally break down um the the foundations of what they believe, um, regardless of whether it's of themselves or of how they construct their relationship to the world or the world itself, then there's a strong dissonance or there's like a radical resistance to whatever that change might look like or whatever understanding those things might look like. Um and it it makes the conversation that much more difficult because now it's like you can't get past someone's more uh fundamental understanding or belief structures that they have so very dogmatically tied themselves to um in order to quote unquote reason with them or use some sort of um what's what I'm looking for, or some some sort of like systemic logic or some sort of you know reason or rationale. And the interesting part about those conversations is that when you start to get into those arenas, you you you visit opposing logic, uh opposing logics, like one person's logic is not going to line up with another person's logic, and that's part of what makes logics just as infallible as any other system of thought. Um, because it's not always gonna line up, and trying to figure out what that's gonna look like for everyone is extremely difficult, especially when you start talking about what it means to be, you know, culturally black versus just having black skin or being queer or whatever. Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because you're you're you're 100% right, because you know, Sushina Shogun and I were talking about our black experiences from a different perspective, the same as Miss Skittle's perspective. You know, what is blackness in America is virtually different from blackness around the world, or blackness, you know, with cultural, different ethnicity backgrounds, but then you were born in America. So there's so many different stories on what blackness is to certain individuals because everybody's blackness is not gonna be the same. Like you said, it is perspective. You know, there's so many backgrounds, there's so many social economical statuses, there's so many different cultural backgrounds to look at. So so many people's version of blackness or how to be black or what black looks like is gonna be vastly different. That's something that'll take a whole lifetime to kind of decipher, so to speak.
SPEAKER_07Actually, when when the three of y'all were talking, it immediately reminded me, if none of y'all see of um Crazy Rich Asians. Um, I didn't see it. I heard of it, but I didn't see. Well, I'm I'm not gonna spoil it for you, but it it reminded me of the camera. You're not gonna watch it's an amazing movie. Uh oh, it is.
SPEAKER_09That's the reaction.
SPEAKER_03You should watch it, it'll it'll help you understand your Nigerian roots a little bit better.
SPEAKER_07Like, if I can get Suchino Shogun, if there's a movie that Suchino Shogun wants to watch, then you should probably watch that movie.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I'll watch it. I will watch it then. All right, I will.
SPEAKER_07All right, also the books are amazing as well, if you want to listen to or read those.
SPEAKER_03On that note, uh, we do need to wrap up. We are at our ending time. So we want to thank you guys for listening to this particular episode. We're gonna actually go on and go into the kind of flip side coin of this conversation, which is whitewashing in our next episode. So stay tuned for that. Uh, if you want to follow, listen, talk, reach out, communicate with any of us, uh, you can reach us as a whole at the blurred spectrum. Uh, either the blurred spectrum at umbralstarcade.com. The email is our mailbox, or you can reach us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook, The Blurred Spectrum. Um, and then if you want to reach me individually, Umbral Star Cade on Twitch, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube, uh BlackMcCCoy.
SPEAKER_07Um, you can hit me at the Black McCoy on Instagram and on Facebook at the Black McCoy cosplay.
SPEAKER_03Um, Miss Skittles.
SPEAKER_02Uh Ms. Skittles underscore cosplay at Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok, and y'all know how I'm I'll say cosplay on Facebook, Sion A underscore cosplay on Instagram.
SPEAKER_03The doctor. Shampoo bracelets.
SPEAKER_05Shampoo bracelets, shampoo bracelets. Yeah, uh shampoo bracelets at uh Instagram and uh Shammy B87 and uh Twitter. Yeah, words, how's it?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, uh uh before I plug a quick uh quick thing I meant to say earlier. Uh uh we I also meant to bring up the inverse of what we were talking about earlier, whereas uh we we naturally want to see representation and attach blackness to people. There's all there's also the assumption of attaching whiteness to people where where it may not may not exist. And and and and literally like how say and they were saying that how we uh if you know if someone's darker and they're evil will unnecessarily make them black. Someone who is, you know, somebody can be red, but but they'll you know, but they'll be you know, they'll be good and they'll be affluent and they'll be well spoken and and we'll naturally attach whiteness to that. And that's just as wrong. Especially, especially uh attack when you apply it to anime. Yeah, like this is a this is a homogenous country and and they're and they're light as hell, and and and even culturally, they they white.
SPEAKER_05It can be a made-up country, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Until you see European stuff in there, you should just assume that they're Japanese. Yep. But uh, but yeah, I'm uh Kazai Shimmer Yuda on Facebook on YouTube.
SPEAKER_03Nice plug. Uh so uh yes. So just to wrap up this episode, thank you everybody for listening. Please come back for the next episode. Uh I was gonna make a pun for more and g, but I can't remember it right now. I'll probably do it for the next episode.
SPEAKER_09All right. Bye.